Transcript
00:00:00 The following is a conversation with Mark Normand,
00:00:02 a New York comedian who has a way with words
00:00:05 that is often both dark and hilarious.
00:00:08 Let there be a warning, dear friends,
00:00:10 to proceed with caution and to wear protection.
00:00:13 You may, in fact, need it.
00:00:16 He has a special on his YouTube called Out to Lunch
00:00:19 and a new special on Netflix
00:00:21 as part of the standup season three series
00:00:23 I recommend you watch.
00:00:26 This is the Lex Friedman podcast.
00:00:28 To support it, please check out our sponsors
00:00:30 in the description.
00:00:31 And now, here’s my conversation with Mark Normand.
00:00:36 I asked Tim Dillon about Bukowski first,
00:00:38 so let me continue on that tradition
00:00:40 and ask you about something
00:00:42 that Charles Bukowski said about love.
00:00:44 Wait, are we rolling?
00:00:46 Yes. Oh, geez.
00:00:47 No hello, no nothing.
00:00:48 Nope. I thought I was robotic.
00:00:51 Bukowski said, love is a fog that burns away
00:00:54 with the first daylight of reality.
00:00:57 So Mark Normand, let me first ask you about love.
00:01:01 What are your thoughts about love?
00:01:02 You talk about your relationships quite a bit.
00:01:05 Do you think love can last?
00:01:07 I do, but I think it’s work.
00:01:10 Everybody wants love to be this prepackaged,
00:01:13 perfect euphoric thing, but you gotta,
00:01:18 it’s like a good body, you know?
00:01:20 We’re all born with a good body,
00:01:21 but you gotta keep it in shape.
00:01:22 And it’s the same with a loving relationship.
00:01:25 I think you.
00:01:27 Nobody wants to do the work, that’s the problem.
00:01:30 You talked about, I think you told a story
00:01:32 about being unfaithful to a previous girlfriend
00:01:35 or something like that.
00:01:36 I think the story goes that you were like drifting apart.
00:01:41 Who were you talking to?
00:01:42 Burt Kreischer maybe or something like that?
00:01:44 Oh yeah, we were high school sweethearts,
00:01:46 dated for like 12 years and then.
00:01:48 So that wasn’t love anymore.
00:01:50 That was more like relationship, that was like.
00:01:51 It was comfort, it was routine.
00:01:53 And we just slipped into that married life autopilot world.
00:01:57 And I tried to break up, I think, and it didn’t take.
00:02:03 It was one of those things.
00:02:04 Our lives are just so baked in.
00:02:07 And then I think I cheated and she caught me
00:02:10 and it was ugly.
00:02:11 And then we went to therapy to try to work it out,
00:02:13 but it’s much like a car that gets into a wreck.
00:02:16 The door just never closed the same.
00:02:18 You know what I mean?
00:02:19 Yeah, so what are your thoughts about then commitment
00:02:23 like outside of love marriage?
00:02:25 I think it’s an antiquated idea.
00:02:27 I think it’s kind of silly and unrealistic.
00:02:30 And I think we’re coming out of that
00:02:31 as we get all polyamorous and non binary
00:02:34 and queefy and all this stuff.
00:02:36 I think we’re slowly moving away from that.
00:02:38 But I think a lot of the ladies,
00:02:41 more majority women like marriage, like the idea of it.
00:02:45 Like I’m a fiance now or whatever you call it.
00:02:48 I’m engaged.
00:02:49 And I mean, she is just woo wee going hog wild.
00:02:54 She’s loving it.
00:02:55 She’s got the dress thing, pick a venue flower
00:02:57 and she’s deep in whereas I feel guilty
00:03:00 because I’m just like, ah, geez.
00:03:04 Is it planned already?
00:03:05 When’s the wedding?
00:03:06 You see Squid Game, I’m just living life.
00:03:08 Yeah, it’s planned.
00:03:11 It’s in New Orleans.
00:03:12 I’m from there and it’s next year.
00:03:15 Are you married?
00:03:16 No, single.
00:03:17 Virgin?
00:03:19 Of course, yeah.
00:03:20 I can’t imagine.
00:03:20 I bet you’d be great in bed.
00:03:21 You’re ripped.
00:03:23 Best hairline in podcasting.
00:03:25 Yeah, I don’t know.
00:03:26 I haven’t tried yet.
00:03:27 So we’ll have to see.
00:03:28 All right, well, let me know.
00:03:28 Pretty big hog on you?
00:03:30 Yeah, I could see you packing a crazy, crazy tool downtown.
00:03:36 That matters to girls?
00:03:38 Apparently, yeah, that’s all I hear about.
00:03:41 Okay, New Orleans.
00:03:42 You grew up in New Orleans?
00:03:43 Yeah, born and raised.
00:03:46 Treme outside the French Quarter.
00:03:47 Have you ever been?
00:03:48 Yeah, don’t remember it.
00:03:50 Oh, you drink?
00:03:51 Yeah, I drink.
00:03:52 Of course I drink.
00:03:53 I don’t know, I can’t tell if you have fun.
00:03:54 No, not really.
00:03:56 But in Russia, of course I drink vodka,
00:03:58 all that kind of stuff.
00:03:59 Oh, right, in Russia.
00:04:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:04:00 Yes.
00:04:01 Gotta know.
00:04:02 Vodka.
00:04:03 Beer was just labeled an alcoholic beverage in 2011.
00:04:05 Fun fact.
00:04:06 What do you mean?
00:04:07 In Russia.
00:04:08 It was just drinks.
00:04:09 It was just like apple juice before.
00:04:10 It finally got declared legally as an alcoholic beverage.
00:04:14 Which means you can regulate it, that kind of thing.
00:04:18 I guess so.
00:04:19 Yeah.
00:04:20 See, that’s where your brain goes.
00:04:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:04:22 I just go, oh, these fucking Ruskies are.
00:04:22 I didn’t even know there was rules about drinking.
00:04:25 This is good, I’m learning about Russia from you.
00:04:27 So what’s the difficult memory, experience from childhood
00:04:31 in New Orleans that made you the man you are today?
00:04:38 I don’t know if it made me the man,
00:04:39 but jeez, I had a lot of scuffles in the neighborhood.
00:04:45 I was the white kid in the neighborhood.
00:04:47 So I was automatically the odd man out, the minority,
00:04:51 the weirdo, the dork, the dweeb, the honky.
00:04:54 So just a lot of memories of like getting slapped
00:04:58 in the face by guys and just having to take it
00:05:01 because there’s like five guys there.
00:05:02 And they’d be like, oh, look, you didn’t even fight back.
00:05:04 And you’re like, what am I going to do?
00:05:06 Hit you and then get beat up by these guys?
00:05:07 So a lot of that stuff was a big bummer growing up.
00:05:12 Got robbed all the time, lost a lot of bicycles,
00:05:16 had a bicycle taken from under me, that was pretty brutal.
00:05:19 These kids pulled up, you know, they’re like 17
00:05:22 and I was 13 and I had a face paint on.
00:05:27 Like I had a, not black face, but I was at a summer camp
00:05:30 and I had a rainbow face painted on me.
00:05:32 We were helping kids that day.
00:05:34 So I let them put paint on me.
00:05:36 And so now I’m riding home.
00:05:38 What a mark, what a goober I am.
00:05:40 I’m riding home and these guys see me a mile away.
00:05:43 I’m a sitting duck and they go, we can take his bike.
00:05:44 He’s got a fucking rainbow on his cheek.
00:05:47 So they just go, hey, you know, like cut in front of you.
00:05:50 They go, let me try your bike.
00:05:51 I go, I’m good, I’m good.
00:05:53 I knew what they wanted.
00:05:54 And they go, let me try the bike.
00:05:56 And then they just pushed me and took the bike.
00:05:58 So stuff like that was really shaping the insecurity,
00:06:02 the self worth.
00:06:04 Did it, cause I’ve been mugged when I was younger too.
00:06:09 Really?
00:06:10 Yeah, it changes your view of human nature a little bit.
00:06:13 For sure.
00:06:14 You go, wow, I didn’t know people could be this mean.
00:06:16 This cool.
00:06:17 Yeah.
00:06:18 Inconsiderate.
00:06:19 I’m always worried about it.
00:06:20 Did I fart too much?
00:06:21 Am I annoying?
00:06:22 Am I pissing this guy off?
00:06:23 But what a way to live.
00:06:25 Just, I want the bike, I’m taking it.
00:06:28 Fuck his feelings.
00:06:30 For me, that quickly turned into realizing
00:06:33 that that’s just a temporary phase that those folks are in.
00:06:36 Like they have a capacity to be good.
00:06:39 Sure.
00:06:40 For some reason, for me, that was a motivation to see,
00:06:43 can we discover, can we incentivize them
00:06:47 to find like a better path in life?
00:06:49 Like I wasn’t like all like, I don’t know, Gandhi about it.
00:06:53 Of course I was pissed and all those kinds of things,
00:06:55 but I don’t know, it seemed like just the kind of thing
00:07:01 you might do when you’re younger.
00:07:03 You hope.
00:07:04 But this is adult crime, obviously.
00:07:07 Yeah, I know, but yeah, exactly.
00:07:09 And then it solidifies and then you’re beyond saving
00:07:12 at some point, but it’s like, there’s always,
00:07:14 there’s always an opportunity to make a better life
00:07:19 for yourself, to become a better version of yourself.
00:07:22 Yeah, and I remember coming home crying with no bike
00:07:25 and my mom, my parents are like liberal to a fault.
00:07:29 You know, where they were like, oh, well they need it.
00:07:31 They’re poor kids in the neighborhood.
00:07:33 And you’re like, all right, but I also like have a bicycle
00:07:36 that I ride around, you know, and I also like to live
00:07:39 in an area that’s not just, you know, riddled with theft
00:07:42 and vandalism, but they were just like, oh, they need it.
00:07:45 And then it was a moot point, we just moved on.
00:07:48 So I remember very young being like, all right,
00:07:49 I gotta figure my shit out.
00:07:53 Okay, so you said you were beat up quite a bit,
00:07:56 like bullying and stuff.
00:07:57 Pushed around, I was never hospitalized or anything,
00:07:59 but you know, you get a black guy here and there
00:08:02 and a bloody nose, stuff like that.
00:08:04 And it was just the outnumbered thing.
00:08:05 The violence didn’t really bother me
00:08:08 because you’re just kids, you’re boys.
00:08:10 But it was the predatory, let’s get him.
00:08:14 You know, we can take him down.
00:08:15 He’s, you know, he’s an easy target.
00:08:17 That’s what kills you, the mental part.
00:08:22 Yeah, you know, until you actually said I didn’t realize,
00:08:25 I’ve been in, what do you call them, scuffles.
00:08:28 And there was just one that stands out to me where, yeah.
00:08:32 Let’s hear it, Faddy, bring it on.
00:08:34 And you do jujitsu and all that stuff, right?
00:08:36 Yeah, I can see the guns through the suit,
00:08:38 you’re like John Wick.
00:08:40 All right, well, I used to have,
00:08:42 now you’re gonna start making fun of me,
00:08:43 I used to have long hair for like a couple of years.
00:08:46 I was in a band playing music and stuff like that.
00:08:48 And there was, like most of the fights I’ve been in
00:08:51 were basically one on one, maybe a little bit like,
00:08:54 a little extra stuff, but not outnumbered.
00:08:58 And this one particular time,
00:09:01 I’ve learned a lot of lessons,
00:09:02 but one of them was, there was a fight started
00:09:06 between me and this other person.
00:09:08 And then his buddies, I guess, were there.
00:09:12 And they, as opposed to like breaking it up
00:09:13 or letting it happen, one of them grabbed my hair.
00:09:19 It’s the first time anybody grabbed,
00:09:20 like used my hair in a fight,
00:09:22 which I haven’t since then realized that that’s actually
00:09:25 a really powerful grip and a powerful weapon.
00:09:27 Oh, very vulnerable of you.
00:09:29 And then my head got pulled back
00:09:31 and they pulled me down to the ground.
00:09:32 Like I couldn’t do anything, it was so,
00:09:34 I remember being exceptionally frustrated.
00:09:36 Yes.
00:09:37 That was the feeling like, I can’t do anything here.
00:09:40 I’m like trapped.
00:09:42 And then they were just like kicking me and hitting me
00:09:44 and stuff like that.
00:09:45 And the outnumbered part of it,
00:09:49 because I always kind of remember the trapped part
00:09:51 because I just hated from a fighting grappling perspective,
00:09:55 how like, the feeling was this isn’t fair.
00:09:58 Yes, that’s what it is.
00:09:59 It’s a deep, deep unfairness that you just can’t win.
00:10:04 The mob wins.
00:10:05 Yeah, the mob wins.
00:10:06 Scary stuff.
00:10:07 But it makes a man out of you in a weird way
00:10:09 that builds character, you realize life isn’t fair early
00:10:12 and you go on from there.
00:10:14 So there’s something there.
00:10:15 And look at you today.
00:10:16 They’re probably eating out of a dumpster
00:10:19 at a Krispy Kreme and you’re here,
00:10:21 got eight podcasts, you’re doing great,
00:10:23 talking to giant titans of the industry.
00:10:26 No, I do remember returning home that night.
00:10:29 I mean that you said you were crying.
00:10:31 That’s really formative.
00:10:33 Like that’s the point in which you get to decide
00:10:35 what do I make of this moment?
00:10:37 I mean, especially when you’re younger,
00:10:38 maybe it’s not presented to you that way,
00:10:40 but like some of the greatest people in history
00:10:44 were bullied in these kinds of ways.
00:10:47 And they made something of themselves in this moment,
00:10:48 like bullied by life in some kind of way.
00:10:51 It’s like an opportunity for growth.
00:10:53 It’s weird, but like hardship even in small doses
00:10:58 is like an opportunity for growth.
00:11:00 Totally, I mean, look at Richard Pryor.
00:11:01 They say he’s labeled as the best comedian of all time.
00:11:03 Grew up in a whorehouse,
00:11:04 watch his mom get plowed by these guys
00:11:07 in the middle of Indiana, I wanna say.
00:11:10 And just who had a harder life?
00:11:12 He would suck dick for drugs,
00:11:14 all this stuff growing up, beat up.
00:11:17 And then the weird thing is, oops, sorry,
00:11:20 that’s my birth control alarm.
00:11:22 And then the whole world is like trying
00:11:24 to get rid of bullying, but we still do bullying,
00:11:27 but now it’s accepted bullying.
00:11:28 It’s very strange.
00:11:29 So you’re a proponent of beating kids up,
00:11:33 is that what you’re saying?
00:11:33 Yes, and sex with them.
00:11:35 All right.
00:11:36 But no, I just think it’s part of life
00:11:40 and it’s horrible, it’s like rain, you gotta have it.
00:11:43 Look, a rainy day is a bummer, but you need it.
00:11:45 And I think it’s similar to that.
00:11:49 What was your relationship like with your mom, your dad?
00:11:53 What are some memorable moments with them?
00:11:54 What did you learn from them?
00:11:56 Good parents, they’re giving, thoughtful.
00:12:01 A little out to lunch, they were workaholics,
00:12:05 so it was hard to get a lot out of them.
00:12:08 And my dad was kind of an angry dad.
00:12:10 I think he just had like a weird childhood
00:12:13 and he’s just trying to make it
00:12:14 and he’s trying to provide, but it’s hard.
00:12:16 And we live in this horrible neighborhood
00:12:18 and we’re getting robbed all the time.
00:12:22 So life was kind of coming down on him all the time.
00:12:24 So then he’ll take it out on you or whoever, he would snap.
00:12:27 But great parents, they cared, they put us first,
00:12:32 but there wasn’t a lot of, you ever go to a friend’s house
00:12:36 as a kid and there’s like a picture of a ski trip
00:12:39 and you’re like, ski trip?
00:12:40 What the hell is that about?
00:12:42 It wasn’t a lot of that and smart, very smart people,
00:12:46 but I don’t know how well they were at socializing.
00:12:49 So you never like bonded with them
00:12:51 like on a deep human level?
00:12:53 Some bonding, but rarely deep.
00:12:54 Yeah, it was just almost coworker.
00:12:57 Hey, cold out, huh?
00:12:59 What?
00:13:00 It’s cold out, huh?
00:13:01 Oh yeah, like that kind of stuff.
00:13:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:13:03 Yeah, yeah, I got you.
00:13:03 Get there a little bit, but my parents are done.
00:13:06 I hope they never saw this, but they would do a thing
00:13:08 where my dad especially would do a thing
00:13:10 where he would, he knew how to cut you down
00:13:13 right to the bone and so after a while you’re like,
00:13:15 I’m not even gonna interact with this guy
00:13:17 because he can get you so well.
00:13:19 One time we were at like a Thanksgiving,
00:13:22 some kind of family event and all the cousins are there
00:13:25 and I remember I was holding court.
00:13:26 I was a young boy finding my comedic legs
00:13:30 in this weird tumultuous sea we call a family
00:13:33 and I was killing and my dad comes out and he goes,
00:13:38 what are you holding court?
00:13:39 And I was like, ah, and I felt like I was this big.
00:13:42 I just whoo, shrunk down.
00:13:44 He just nailed it because in my head I’m like,
00:13:45 I’m holding court, look at me, I got the whole room
00:13:47 and he goes, what are you, what are you holding court here?
00:13:49 And I’m like, who the hell do you think you are?
00:13:51 And I was like, he’s right, I shouldn’t be holding court,
00:13:53 who the fuck am I, I’m nobody.
00:13:55 So stuff like that.
00:13:57 Was he aware of that you think?
00:13:58 He wasn’t, he wasn’t, I don’t think he was, but.
00:14:01 Do you give parents a pass when they’re unaware
00:14:06 of the destructive, like is it better when they’re unaware?
00:14:09 Because it seems like that’s the way.
00:14:11 That’s true.
00:14:12 That’s the way parents often fail
00:14:13 is they’re not intentionally malevolent,
00:14:18 they’re just like clueless.
00:14:20 Yeah, it’s a bittersweet thing
00:14:22 because you’re like, well, okay, he’s not malicious,
00:14:24 he’s not trying to hurt me,
00:14:26 but also he doesn’t know he hurt me.
00:14:29 I don’t know, it’s tough
00:14:31 because if he was trying to hurt you,
00:14:33 I guess that would be worse.
00:14:35 So you’re the fully baked Mark Norman cake at this point
00:14:39 Yeah, it’s a shitty cake.
00:14:43 Fruit salad.
00:14:45 You know, the sense of self worth you mentioned.
00:14:49 I think in your comedy,
00:14:50 there’s a sense like you hate yourself.
00:14:52 You think?
00:14:54 I didn’t know if that came through.
00:14:55 Shit, I was trying to hide that part.
00:14:57 God damn it.
00:14:58 I mean, when you like in the privacy of your own mind,
00:15:02 are you able to love yourself or is it mostly self hate?
00:15:07 Jeez, what happened to this podcast?
00:15:09 I didn’t know I was on Dr. Phil.
00:15:11 Dr. Phil.
00:15:11 I thought we were gonna talk about engineering
00:15:13 and climate change and rockets.
00:15:17 We’ll get there.
00:15:17 Okay.
00:15:18 Starts with love, goes to rockets.
00:15:20 All right, I like that.
00:15:21 I like that’s a t shirt.
00:15:24 I mean, like.
00:15:25 What’s the question?
00:15:26 Sorry.
00:15:27 Do I feel love?
00:15:29 No, no, like.
00:15:29 Do I love myself?
00:15:31 Yeah, yeah, so are you like this engine
00:15:36 of being self critical
00:15:37 of just being constantly anxious
00:15:40 about how the world perceives you, these kinds of things?
00:15:43 Is this something that you just go to for comedy
00:15:47 or is this who you are as a human being?
00:15:50 I think I don’t wanna explore it.
00:15:52 I think I get around it.
00:15:54 You know, I tap dance around it,
00:15:55 but I get it out a little with my act maybe,
00:15:57 because I can’t do it.
00:15:59 I’m not doing it in real life.
00:16:00 So I’ll get out this no love, not loving myself.
00:16:04 I don’t know who wants to love themself.
00:16:06 Everybody always like you gotta love yourself.
00:16:07 And then when you meet somebody who does love yourself,
00:16:09 you’re like, I fucking hate this guy.
00:16:11 Don’t you hate the guy who’s upset?
00:16:12 I’m great, I’m awesome.
00:16:14 Life is good.
00:16:15 You’re like, ah, this guy sucks.
00:16:17 I’d rather an insecure guy.
00:16:18 So maybe I wanna stay insecure.
00:16:20 Maybe I don’t wanna find this love for myself.
00:16:22 Well, okay.
00:16:23 So self love, like just appreciating who you are,
00:16:27 or like appreciating the moment of being grateful
00:16:30 doesn’t have to express itself
00:16:32 by the guy saying I’m awesome.
00:16:34 True.
00:16:35 It’s more just like humility.
00:16:36 It’s just like walking calmly through the world
00:16:38 and just being grateful to be alive,
00:16:39 that kind of thing.
00:16:40 That’s good.
00:16:42 And like, oh, being appreciative
00:16:43 of all the accomplishments you’ve made so far.
00:16:45 I say all this because mostly I’m extremely self critical
00:16:49 in everything I do.
00:16:50 And so, and I kind of enjoy it.
00:16:54 I think it’s a nice little engine that it makes it fun.
00:16:57 It makes life fun,
00:16:57 because it’s like if you hate everything you do,
00:17:01 like you’ve done in the past,
00:17:04 that gives you like, all right, we can do better.
00:17:06 Yes, but that’s the key is making yourself critical.
00:17:09 Always trying to get better.
00:17:10 I could change this, I could tweak this,
00:17:11 I could improve this.
00:17:13 When you just go, I hate that I do this, I suck,
00:17:15 you just shut down.
00:17:16 So that’s the key is always being productive
00:17:19 with the criticism.
00:17:21 Yeah, and the basics of life,
00:17:22 I’m just like grateful for it, to be alive.
00:17:24 That’s nice to be coupled that with self criticism.
00:17:27 Two legs, again, the hairline, the hog,
00:17:30 the muscles, the world.
00:17:32 You got a good brain on you.
00:17:34 I mean, you’re lucky.
00:17:35 You’re in the top,
00:17:37 most people are fat as shit at Burger King right now,
00:17:39 hitting their kids.
00:17:40 Yeah.
00:17:41 You’re in a Ramada hotel,
00:17:43 sitting with a low level comedian.
00:17:47 For the record, I ate McDonald’s last night.
00:17:49 Oh, all right, well, you’re human.
00:17:52 Well, just so you know, this is not me defending,
00:17:54 I’m not sponsored by McDonald’s,
00:17:56 but I mostly eat meat,
00:17:57 and there’s nothing wrong with the beef they have.
00:18:01 It’s actually one of the easiest ways late at night.
00:18:04 I think it’s worse.
00:18:05 I don’t know if it’s actually cow.
00:18:07 It’s actually rats.
00:18:07 Yeah, you’re right.
00:18:09 But hey, it’s just meat.
00:18:10 I’m a meat guy myself.
00:18:12 They say in 20 years, we’re gonna look back
00:18:14 and go, can you believe people ate meat?
00:18:16 It’s gonna look like somebody like slavery.
00:18:18 Yeah, there’s some ethical,
00:18:20 difficult things with factory farming.
00:18:22 Yeah, so let’s ride it out now while we still got it.
00:18:26 And now it’s on record.
00:18:28 Tom Waits says something about New York.
00:18:31 You like Tom Waits?
00:18:32 I think he’s underrated.
00:18:33 I think he’s got great,
00:18:34 he’s got a great, he’s great at quips and quotes.
00:18:38 Check him out on YouTube.
00:18:39 He’s got some montages and super cuts
00:18:41 of him being hilarious.
00:18:43 What does he say about,
00:18:47 I’d rather have a bottle in front of me
00:18:49 than a frontal lobotomy.
00:18:50 That was the one.
00:18:51 That was the one that sold me.
00:18:52 I was like, this guy’s awesome.
00:18:53 Yeah, but his music,
00:18:54 cause he’s just a genius musician.
00:18:56 Yeah.
00:18:57 Anyway, he was talking about New York.
00:18:59 I was walking around, I’m in New York right now.
00:19:01 We’re in New York right now.
00:19:03 It’s still a magical city to me.
00:19:04 A lot of people are quite cynical about it,
00:19:06 about the state of things, but.
00:19:08 Go again.
00:19:09 Not like Michael Malice, like a lot of friends of mine,
00:19:13 they’re just a lot of folks in San Francisco and New York,
00:19:15 there’s something about the pandemic
00:19:17 where people have become quite cynical
00:19:19 about the place they are and they try to escape.
00:19:22 It’s interesting.
00:19:22 I mean, they’re asking some difficult questions
00:19:24 about what they are in life.
00:19:26 They’re having like a self imposed midlife crisis.
00:19:29 It’s good, I think, for everybody to go through this process.
00:19:32 But I think, I hope New York reemerges.
00:19:35 It will.
00:19:36 As the flourishing place for the weirdos.
00:19:37 Anyway, Tom Waits said,
00:19:39 New York, of course, is to be in endless surreal situations
00:19:45 where a $50,000 gun metal Mercedes
00:19:48 pulls up in a puddle of blood
00:19:50 and out steps a 25 carat blonde with a $2 wristwatch.
00:19:54 Woo!
00:19:55 And he goes, he keeps going on.
00:19:56 So like, it’s like a.
00:19:58 That’s like bars, he’s like a rapper.
00:20:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah, he’s good.
00:20:02 But basically, just the absurdity of it all.
00:20:06 Lots of money, lots of weirdos, degenerates,
00:20:10 and dreamers, and the whole mix of it.
00:20:14 Do you think that’s an accurate description
00:20:18 of what New York is today?
00:20:19 Like, is there still place for the weirdos
00:20:22 and just the interesting artists,
00:20:24 the edgy, the comedians, the creators,
00:20:29 the entrepreneurs, as opposed to like Wall Street,
00:20:35 as opposed to like rich folk,
00:20:38 and then like hopeless folk?
00:20:40 Yeah, I think it’s definitely changed a lot.
00:20:42 There’s a tiny corner for us weirdo artists.
00:20:46 New York used to be where you went to make it
00:20:48 as a painter or whatever, a comedian or a singer.
00:20:51 And there were all these dives and shit boxes
00:20:53 and all these places you could go.
00:20:54 And now it’s more Pink Berries
00:20:57 and Subway Sandwiches and Chase Banks.
00:20:59 So it’s definitely lost a lot of its creative edge.
00:21:03 It’s just money, money keeps coming in.
00:21:05 And now you see all these comedians move to Nashville,
00:21:07 Austin, Denver, whatever.
00:21:09 So it doesn’t have the power it used to have
00:21:13 of like, you gotta be here if you wanna make it.
00:21:16 That’s definitely gone.
00:21:17 So that hurt the city a lot.
00:21:20 The city is way more soulless.
00:21:22 When I moved here in 07,
00:21:24 I mean, not only did I get mugged three times
00:21:26 in the first year, but it was a hub of like,
00:21:31 it felt like things were happening here.
00:21:33 It was an energy, it was electricity.
00:21:34 And we still have the electricity,
00:21:35 but it’s also maybe just cause there’s Times Square,
00:21:38 there’s Soho, there’s Wall Street.
00:21:41 So we got the staples, but there is a little bit of that.
00:21:44 It’s almost like a marriage.
00:21:45 Like, yeah, we’re in love,
00:21:46 but it’s not as passionate as it once was.
00:21:49 That’s how I would equate New York.
00:21:51 What gives you hope?
00:21:52 You’re pretty hopeful about it though.
00:21:54 I’m hopeful just cause I know it’s magical
00:21:57 and I think it has to be.
00:21:59 I mean, it’s the epicenter of America.
00:22:01 Like this is where the immigrants came
00:22:02 and this is where the stock market is
00:22:05 and the entertainment industry, a lot of it is here.
00:22:08 So I think it’s gonna happen,
00:22:12 but something like the bottom has to fall out
00:22:14 and then people have to move back here and all that.
00:22:16 So something, the corporations are kind of fucking us.
00:22:19 They’re just buying everything.
00:22:20 Well, that’s true for everything.
00:22:22 That’s true for everything.
00:22:23 This is true for Austin probably as well.
00:22:24 People are just buying out land and all that kind of stuff.
00:22:27 You always hear a Hemingway and Dali
00:22:28 and all these guys went to Paris in the 20s
00:22:32 or whatever that was.
00:22:34 I get it now.
00:22:35 I used to be like, why do these guys go to Paris?
00:22:36 Why do these artists?
00:22:38 And now I get it.
00:22:39 Cause it’s like, it’s freer there.
00:22:41 That’s why Austin became like that Paris
00:22:43 where everybody’s like, I gotta get out of LA.
00:22:44 I’m going there.
00:22:46 And maybe, but we came back from that.
00:22:50 70s were wild and 90s were cool.
00:22:53 So maybe it’ll come back.
00:22:54 Might just take a decade.
00:22:55 Well, there’s always, that’s how stories are told.
00:22:57 There’s always pockets of like Paris within New York.
00:23:02 True, true.
00:23:03 There’s just an opportunity to let your weird flourish
00:23:07 is there in New York, I’m sure.
00:23:09 There, I mean.
00:23:12 It’s there.
00:23:13 You gotta find it.
00:23:14 Before it was front and center.
00:23:16 What’s your favorite thing about New York?
00:23:18 Like what kind of things just like.
00:23:22 I mean, how long is this pod?
00:23:23 I could go on.
00:23:24 It’s just, it’s too much to put into one hour.
00:23:27 We’ve got other questions, but I love that one neighborhood
00:23:31 is wildly different than the next.
00:23:33 I’m in Little Italy and then you take four steps.
00:23:35 Now I’m in Chinatown.
00:23:36 I mean, and then the history there and then the stories
00:23:39 and the food and the culture and all that.
00:23:42 And then you go 10 feet over here.
00:23:44 Now you’re in Brooklyn.
00:23:45 And this is insane as a whole nother world.
00:23:47 And it’s almost like a little America in one,
00:23:51 you know, city and it’s great.
00:23:54 And just the fact that they pulled it off
00:23:56 like Fifth Avenue goes way up.
00:23:59 And you’re like, there’s a billionaire’s house
00:24:00 next to a hobo.
00:24:01 And then this is a black guy who’s fighting with a Cuban guy
00:24:04 and an Asian guy is trying to get in the middle of them.
00:24:07 And the cabbie’s from the Middle East.
00:24:09 And there’s so many beautiful women here.
00:24:12 And there’s so many brilliant minds here.
00:24:13 And the pace is great.
00:24:15 It keeps people moving.
00:24:16 I mean, it just, you can’t beat it.
00:24:18 And the city will fuck you in the ass too.
00:24:20 Don’t get me wrong.
00:24:21 You landed JFK and you’re like, oh God, I got mugged.
00:24:23 My Uber driver called me a homo.
00:24:27 I stepped in human shit.
00:24:29 Where the fuck am I?
00:24:31 So yeah, it’s bad news.
00:24:33 But that bad news, it’s almost like the bullying.
00:24:35 It kills you in a weird way, but it makes you stronger.
00:24:38 And you build more layers and layers and layers.
00:24:40 That’s why some new guys,
00:24:41 some hayseed from Milwaukee shows up.
00:24:44 You’ve been here 10 years and you go,
00:24:46 let me help you out.
00:24:47 Cause you gotta adjust.
00:24:50 You’re gonna get your ass kicked for like six months.
00:24:52 But I know the ropes a little,
00:24:54 and I think you need a little of that.
00:24:55 If the treadmill’s not on, you’re not gonna run.
00:25:00 New York, the treadmill’s on.
00:25:01 So it just makes you run and it makes you better.
00:25:03 And look, it wears on you.
00:25:04 You probably lose 10 years of your life
00:25:06 living in New York versus Indianapolis,
00:25:09 but it’s a better life.
00:25:12 Have you seen 25th Hour?
00:25:13 Yeah, it’s been a while.
00:25:15 Spike Lee joint.
00:25:17 Yeah, Spike Lee joint.
00:25:18 I mean, at Norton, there’s a whole monologue there
00:25:23 about New York.
00:25:24 Oh, that’s right.
00:25:25 They’re talking about just, he has like a mix.
00:25:30 There’s like melancholy music, I think,
00:25:31 or just a melancholy feel to the whole thing.
00:25:34 But there’s an anger and a disgust with the city.
00:25:37 But through the anger and the disgust
00:25:38 comes out like a love for the city.
00:25:40 Same with, was Taxi Driver in New York?
00:25:43 Oh yeah, it’s going crazy.
00:25:45 Yeah, so like that, there’s something about, what is that?
00:25:48 What is that grit of the city that like pushes you down?
00:25:56 Well, that’s the beauty of this city
00:25:57 is it’s this tribal human nature,
00:25:59 like the sex shops and fistfights and racism
00:26:04 and all this tension,
00:26:05 but yet it’s the epicenter of technology and finance
00:26:08 and sophistication on Fifth Avenue.
00:26:10 So you get that juxtaposition.
00:26:13 It’s kind of like in Boston.
00:26:14 You go to Boston, they got MIT, they got Harvard,
00:26:16 they got all this shit.
00:26:18 And then they got the fishermen, the blue collar douchebags,
00:26:21 the Irish guys, the immigrants,
00:26:23 and you get that mix of like insanely smart
00:26:26 with wicked pisser and these two worlds.
00:26:30 And that’s a good thing.
00:26:31 It’s like when a black guy fucks an Asian lady,
00:26:33 that’s a good looking kid.
00:26:35 You get a mix.
00:26:36 We’re mixing two totally different things
00:26:39 are coming together and it makes it,
00:26:40 it’s like peanut butter and chocolate.
00:26:43 Peanut butter and chocolate, I’ve never tried that.
00:26:45 What?
00:26:46 Peanut butter, maybe I have.
00:26:47 You’re talking about Reese’s, man.
00:26:48 Like Reese’s, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:50 Oh, it’s the best candy.
00:26:52 Yeah, without the fakeness of LA,
00:26:55 without the kind of, with the facade.
00:27:00 Yeah, LA’s tough.
00:27:03 What’s the difference between LA comedy
00:27:05 and New York comedy to you?
00:27:08 I think one place you kind of go to make it
00:27:10 and be discovered and be loved,
00:27:13 and one place you go, you can get all that in New York too,
00:27:16 but I think in New York, it’s more of a school,
00:27:19 a bootcamp of comedy.
00:27:21 Let’s make great comedy.
00:27:22 Let’s make original comedy.
00:27:23 Let’s watch the other guys and gals
00:27:26 who are at the show at the clubs and learn from them
00:27:29 and try to hang out with them and absorb some of them.
00:27:33 And in LA, it’s like, when am I on?
00:27:36 I’m next, get out of my way.
00:27:38 I’m the star here.
00:27:39 I’m a bigger star than you.
00:27:41 Oh, this guy’s actually a big star.
00:27:42 I got to outwork, you know, it’s just a lot of that
00:27:44 instead of like, damn, that was funny.
00:27:46 I got to be that funny.
00:27:47 Damn, I wish I had a joke.
00:27:48 And look, I don’t want to speak for LA comics
00:27:51 because there’s, you know, Bill Burr, Anthony Jeslenek,
00:27:54 brilliant LA comic, but they all cut their teeth
00:27:56 in New York, just saying.
00:27:58 Then they moved to LA.
00:28:00 That’s a good point.
00:28:01 You know, Ali Wong, all these people, killer comics,
00:28:03 but New York, started in New York, moved to New York.
00:28:07 There is something about comics that stay in New York
00:28:09 for a long time though, like Dave Attell.
00:28:11 Ah, you know about Dave?
00:28:12 Yeah, yeah, he wants to do this podcast.
00:28:14 He does?
00:28:15 Yeah, I’m a huge fan of Dave Attell.
00:28:16 But it’s like, he almost like he doesn’t want to make it.
00:28:21 I don’t know.
00:28:21 I mean, you probably know him, but like,
00:28:23 it feels like you just, maybe it’s romanticizing it,
00:28:27 but you’re like, you almost just love the art of comedy,
00:28:31 like becoming funnier, crafting the jokes,
00:28:34 becoming funnier than the other comics,
00:28:35 like competing with each other kind of thing,
00:28:37 not over like money or fame or any of that,
00:28:41 just purely the comedy of it.
00:28:43 Totally, that’s Dave.
00:28:44 That’s him in a nutshell.
00:28:45 He’s like that guy in the movies in the 80s,
00:28:46 action movies, where they’re like,
00:28:48 they go up to a creek in Montana,
00:28:50 and some guy’s living in a cabin,
00:28:51 and he’s sharpening a stick, and they go,
00:28:54 the Russians are coming, they’re invading.
00:28:56 We need you, you’re the best commando.
00:28:57 And he’s like, I gave that up, man.
00:28:59 I’m done with that lifestyle.
00:29:00 They’re like, but you’re the best, we need you.
00:29:02 And he has to suit up eventually.
00:29:04 You know, he looks at a picture of his dead wife,
00:29:06 and he goes, fuck it, I’m going.
00:29:07 And then they, you know, fight the Ruskies.
00:29:09 But he’s that guy.
00:29:11 He just is gifted.
00:29:12 He’s like got a gift from Allah, and he’s the best.
00:29:16 Yeah, a lot of comics give him props.
00:29:18 That’s always surprising to me.
00:29:20 Because it’s surprising to me
00:29:21 because he hasn’t really made it, like big.
00:29:25 Well, he did.
00:29:26 In the 90s, he was huge.
00:29:27 He had his own TV show.
00:29:28 Yeah, yeah, that show was awesome.
00:29:30 But I mean, like as big as I think he deserves to be.
00:29:34 Well, that’s art.
00:29:35 The mainstream shit is always the worst.
00:29:37 It’s like McDonald’s versus some hole in the wall.
00:29:40 I know I’m shitting on McDonald’s again, but it’s good.
00:29:43 And you know, certain comics we could name are good,
00:29:46 but the delicacy is going to be less talked about
00:29:51 and less household namey than the mainstream hacky shit.
00:29:58 Yeah, it’s funny because he hasn’t,
00:29:59 I think it was on Joe Rogan’s show once, maybe.
00:30:04 Yeah, once or twice.
00:30:04 And he was with somebody else.
00:30:07 Jeff Ross?
00:30:08 Yeah, he might have known Jeff Ross.
00:30:10 Oh yeah, because they did that like two mics thing,
00:30:12 whatever.
00:30:13 Oh, big mics, yeah.
00:30:13 Yeah.
00:30:15 But he’s the quickest guy.
00:30:16 There’s no one funnier.
00:30:17 Yeah.
00:30:18 Yeah, him and you, you’re super quick.
00:30:22 Your appearance on, recent appearance on Rogan’s hilarious.
00:30:24 Oh, thanks.
00:30:25 Just so fast.
00:30:27 You’re on with Ari and…
00:30:29 Shane Gillis.
00:30:30 Shane Gillis.
00:30:31 Yeah, that was fun.
00:30:32 We’re going back in January.
00:30:33 I don’t know when this comes out.
00:30:35 This has never come out.
00:30:38 Neither will you.
00:30:40 We’re having fun.
00:30:41 Yep.
00:30:42 All right, so what does it feel like to bomb
00:30:46 in standup comedy, like to fail?
00:30:49 Maybe the psychology of it first,
00:30:51 like just take me through it.
00:30:53 Cause we’re talking about being outnumbered in a fight,
00:30:57 just being beat up.
00:30:58 Very similar.
00:31:00 By the way, this is like a no eye contact off.
00:31:02 Yeah, we’re both uncomfortable with it.
00:31:05 Yeah, it’s great.
00:31:06 It’s kind of nice to be with my people, but yeah.
00:31:10 Do you need a sheet of paper to look at it?
00:31:12 I’m going, I got a good sweet spot right there.
00:31:15 Yeah, it’s a nightmare, but it’s part of it.
00:31:21 It’s the validation too is the worst part.
00:31:24 Cause you know, whenever you do comedy and kill,
00:31:27 you can be a great comic,
00:31:28 but even David Tell, these brilliant guys,
00:31:29 they feel like they’re getting,
00:31:30 you feel like you’re getting away with something.
00:31:32 I don’t have a day job.
00:31:33 I’m telling jokes for a living.
00:31:34 I’m talking about my dick up here
00:31:35 and they’re fucking loving me.
00:31:36 And they call me a genius and all this.
00:31:38 I’m talking about my sack, you know?
00:31:40 And it’s great.
00:31:42 It makes people happy and it’s funny,
00:31:43 but that bombing, when you bomb,
00:31:46 your first thought is like, yeah, you’re right.
00:31:48 At first you’re like, fuck you guys.
00:31:50 What, you don’t like this shit?
00:31:51 And then you just start going in.
00:31:53 You’re like, man, maybe it isn’t that good.
00:31:54 Maybe they’re right.
00:31:55 I do suck.
00:31:56 I knew I sucked.
00:31:57 I should become a mailman, you know?
00:32:00 And it stinks and you feel alone.
00:32:03 And you feel like you wasted their time.
00:32:06 And then you’re like, what was I thinking?
00:32:07 I could be a comedian.
00:32:08 What the fuck, who am I?
00:32:09 You know, Eddie Murphy, what am I doing here?
00:32:11 So it’s a lot of just spiraling out of horrible thoughts.
00:32:16 But I also love that it hurts so bad.
00:32:18 Bombing fucking hurts because now everybody doesn’t do it.
00:32:23 I think a lot more people could do comedy probably
00:32:25 and figure it out.
00:32:26 But the bombing is so brutal
00:32:28 that it keeps, one time I went to Minneapolis.
00:32:31 I was like, this is a great city.
00:32:32 I mean, it’s a sun is shining.
00:32:33 Why isn’t this city like packed?
00:32:35 And they’re like, cause the winters are so bad
00:32:36 and we love it because it keeps everybody out.
00:32:38 And I feel like the same about comedy.
00:32:39 The bombs are so brutal.
00:32:41 I’ve had bombs where I’m in bed.
00:32:43 I’m just staring at the ceiling like, what the fuck was that?
00:32:45 Like you have PTSD.
00:32:47 I bombed at an arena once, 20,000 people.
00:32:49 I did 30 minutes to silence.
00:32:52 I guess.
00:32:53 So it’s not just like one joke fails.
00:32:54 It’s like they start piling on like it’s irrecoverable.
00:32:58 Yes.
00:32:59 And one joke failing is very common.
00:33:00 Like a lot of audience don’t even notice like that bomb.
00:33:03 Cause you get, you know, you’ve got so many jokes in a row.
00:33:05 You can sandwich a good one, then a bad one,
00:33:07 then a good one.
00:33:08 But when you bomb, it’s almost like they chose,
00:33:10 we don’t like you.
00:33:12 Nothing you say will redeem yourself.
00:33:14 And it’s hard to get out of.
00:33:16 It’s like being pulled down by your hair.
00:33:18 You can’t get back.
00:33:19 I can’t win this fight no matter what.
00:33:21 Can you like get them back by acknowledging
00:33:24 like the elephant in the room that like.
00:33:27 That helps, but they’re still gonna go,
00:33:28 that was funny when he made fun of it, but he sucks.
00:33:31 He still sucks.
00:33:32 He still sucks.
00:33:33 That’s the worst part.
00:33:34 You’re going, no, this is good.
00:33:36 You guys just don’t like me.
00:33:37 Just cause you don’t like me doesn’t mean I’m bad.
00:33:39 Yeah, I like going to open mics a lot.
00:33:41 Just listening because first of all,
00:33:45 I think the audience in open mic,
00:33:47 at least the ones I’ve been to,
00:33:49 is mostly I guess other comedians
00:33:51 or like at least people who don’t seem
00:33:53 to want to laugh at anything.
00:33:55 And so I just love it because it’s human nature
00:33:58 and perseverance that is best.
00:34:00 That here’s comedians, like clearly,
00:34:03 this is mostly in Austin.
00:34:04 They have a dream.
00:34:06 Like why would you get up there?
00:34:07 Right, maybe some weird, you know,
00:34:12 New Year’s resolution bullshit,
00:34:13 but for the most part, it’s people who want to be comedians.
00:34:16 Like a lot of the open micers are people
00:34:18 who clearly have done this for quite a long time already.
00:34:21 Like at least a year or two, maybe five years.
00:34:24 And they’re often not very funny.
00:34:29 And just bombing in front of an audience of like 20
00:34:36 where they’re just sitting there,
00:34:39 like almost like mocking them with their eyes
00:34:42 or maybe, and I don’t know, and they still push through.
00:34:45 They still like, as if they’re doing an arena
00:34:49 and everybody’s laughing.
00:34:52 They still got that energy trying.
00:34:54 Almost like to an audience that doesn’t exist.
00:34:58 Like an audience of their dreams.
00:35:00 Cause I guess that you have to do that
00:35:01 to keep the energy of the act going.
00:35:03 And it’s just so beautiful to watch them try it.
00:35:08 And also what happens, open mic,
00:35:11 I don’t know, five minutes, whatever they do,
00:35:13 they walk off and then walk back off stage.
00:35:19 And like, you can’t, who do they look at?
00:35:21 Like what do you look at, do you make eye contact
00:35:24 with people, do you?
00:35:25 You look at your phone, you look at your feet,
00:35:27 you just zone out.
00:35:28 You kind of kind of go white, you know,
00:35:32 you just hear white noise and go out.
00:35:34 It’s tough, but you got it.
00:35:37 You need a little delusion to be a comedian.
00:35:40 To get into it, it takes a little bit of delusion.
00:35:42 Like you think you can do this, you know,
00:35:44 you got 10 years ahead of you of hell
00:35:46 and you’re up for this.
00:35:48 And you know, most comics, we see a horrible crowd
00:35:50 and we see our friend bomb and we go,
00:35:53 yeah, he’s bombing, but I’ll get him.
00:35:55 I’ll get him.
00:35:56 And then you don’t get him, but that’s human nature too.
00:36:02 It’s like, they don’t like him, but they’ll like me.
00:36:04 And you need a little of that to keep going as a comedian.
00:36:07 But you don’t want too much delusion
00:36:08 because then you’re a psycho, but you need a little.
00:36:11 Well, the psycho could be good for a comedy.
00:36:13 That’s true too, love psychos.
00:36:15 I mentioned to you offline that I talked to Elon
00:36:18 and we talked about doing standup,
00:36:20 but he’s thinking maybe do a few minutes of standup.
00:36:22 I was gonna say, if you need a coach, Elon, I gotcha.
00:36:27 Well, maybe you should move to Austin
00:36:28 to coach him full time.
00:36:30 Ah, hopefully he can fly me in.
00:36:32 So what advice would you give to somebody
00:36:36 who wants to try to do five minutes,
00:36:39 like the early steps of trying to go to an open mic
00:36:44 and say something funny?
00:36:46 Well, that’s the irony of comedy is,
00:36:48 I don’t know if it’s irony,
00:36:49 but it’s like the beginning is the hardest part.
00:36:51 Usually the beginning is easy part.
00:36:53 Hey, I’m playing this level of Mario.
00:36:55 I start, I jump over one Koopa Troopa, whatever.
00:36:57 And then the end is like, Jesus Christ,
00:36:59 I got 30 guys coming at me.
00:37:01 Comedy is the opposite.
00:37:02 The beginning is like, it’s a gauntlet.
00:37:04 It’s just obstacles.
00:37:06 And it’s like you said, open mics.
00:37:07 I watched these famous comedians on Netflix and you go,
00:37:10 this would all bomb at an open mic.
00:37:12 They’re killing in Radio City.
00:37:14 This would bomb at an open mic.
00:37:15 That’s the weird part.
00:37:16 So it’s almost like you have to go through hell
00:37:18 just to get to the promised land.
00:37:21 And I would say, rehearse the shit out of it
00:37:25 because you’re gonna get frazzled up there.
00:37:26 Everybody thinks, oh, this is good material.
00:37:28 But you also forget about the other part of delivering it,
00:37:31 having confidence, being likable,
00:37:33 having timing, having a cadence,
00:37:35 figuring out who you are,
00:37:37 figuring out what the audience thinks you are
00:37:39 or how they perceive you.
00:37:40 Cause you can go up there and say all this,
00:37:42 but they go, why is the guy, he’s clearly gay.
00:37:44 Why is he acting like he’s not gay?
00:37:46 That’s all, now they’re not listening to the joke.
00:37:47 So like, you gotta know how you look.
00:37:50 And it’s just repetition, repetition.
00:37:53 And bombing is not failure.
00:37:54 That’s what you gotta remember.
00:37:56 I mean, look, if you do a killer hour
00:37:58 and then you take it to Netflix and bomb, you fucked up.
00:38:01 But bombing is not failure.
00:38:03 It’s just data.
00:38:04 It’s going, oh, okay, I gotta retool that.
00:38:07 That didn’t work.
00:38:08 Something’s wrong there.
00:38:09 I missed a word there.
00:38:11 So you gotta treat the act
00:38:13 almost like ingredients in a cooking, in a dish.
00:38:20 You know, like, oh, I put too many eggs in.
00:38:22 Take an egg out.
00:38:22 You gotta treat it like that.
00:38:24 And look, when you pull a bad cake out of an oven,
00:38:26 you go, I fucked up.
00:38:27 But it doesn’t hurt your feelings.
00:38:29 But when you bomb and fuck up, it hurts your feelings.
00:38:32 So you gotta factor that in too.
00:38:33 Your feelings gonna be hurt
00:38:35 and just almost be a robot
00:38:36 and just keep going towards that open mic.
00:38:39 You know how scary an open mic is?
00:38:40 Bombing sucks, but bombing in front of other comedians
00:38:43 is way worse.
00:38:44 Cause they know what just happened
00:38:47 and they could have saved you and they didn’t.
00:38:49 So it’s way worse.
00:38:51 And they’re gonna be your quote unquote friends
00:38:55 for this journey.
00:38:56 Yeah, no, these are evil people.
00:38:59 Twisted, fucked up, hurt people.
00:39:02 Can you tell, like in those early days,
00:39:05 let’s just talk about that,
00:39:06 like at the open mic level
00:39:08 that a joke is gonna be good on paper.
00:39:11 Like I’ll give you my experience
00:39:12 cause maybe you could be my coach
00:39:16 in this particular moment.
00:39:18 So.
00:39:18 Like Larry Nassar.
00:39:22 That’s fun, huh?
00:39:24 Joking, everybody.
00:39:25 I hope nobody takes it seriously.
00:39:28 I now have an amazing team of folks
00:39:30 who help me with editing
00:39:31 and they’re now currently sweating.
00:39:33 Watch this.
00:39:34 We gotta leave that one in.
00:39:35 That was quick.
00:39:36 Yeah, that was pretty good.
00:39:37 I’ll leave that one.
00:39:37 That was good.
00:39:38 All right.
00:39:40 So going in front of an audience,
00:39:45 just even to give a lecture terrifies me,
00:39:48 which I’ve done.
00:39:49 But open mic, I mean, that to me,
00:39:53 perhaps that’s why I like going to open mics and listening
00:39:55 is cause I just, it terrifies me so much,
00:39:58 that idea of going up there and bombing.
00:40:02 I mean, it’s scary.
00:40:03 And to do even like one minute, to be honest, is scary.
00:40:07 And five minutes, I’m also watched enough open mics
00:40:11 to realize that five minutes is a long time.
00:40:13 I mean, it depends on your comedy,
00:40:15 but if you’re doing fast stuff,
00:40:18 five minutes is a really long time.
00:40:20 Oh, it’s eternity.
00:40:22 I guess with a long story, too, is a long time
00:40:26 because if the story’s not working,
00:40:27 you’re building up to something.
00:40:29 If the story’s gonna fail,
00:40:30 you just spent all that time telling the story
00:40:33 that completely went flat.
00:40:35 Completely. Got nothing.
00:40:36 I guess if you have a series of jokes,
00:40:38 you can at least try to recover
00:40:39 and like do the Mitch Hedberg thing
00:40:41 where like, all right, I’ll cross that off.
00:40:43 Yeah, yeah.
00:40:45 Well, I’m able to, like I’ve tried to write a few things
00:40:48 and I’m able to tell that it’s really bad.
00:40:51 Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, well, that’s better than most.
00:40:54 Most people’s egos kick in, they go, no, this is good.
00:40:56 No, see, I’m able to introspect that.
00:40:59 Like it seems funny.
00:41:00 I mean, I guess the thing I’m looking for is original.
00:41:03 Like there’s easy stuff that you think is funny,
00:41:08 but to me, originality is the thing
00:41:10 you should be looking for because then,
00:41:12 because then that’s what’s actually becomes funny.
00:41:17 Like, or rather, if it’s original,
00:41:21 even if it bombs, that feels like more
00:41:25 a beautiful art creation that you did.
00:41:27 Like at least you swung for it.
00:41:29 Like you did something unique.
00:41:30 Cause like even with open mic, your first five minutes,
00:41:33 there’s so many, just go to enough open mics,
00:41:36 you’ll hear like all the, there’s like a list of jokes
00:41:39 that you can just go to.
00:41:40 First of all, you can make fun of the fact
00:41:42 that you’re at open mic, that you’re like doing this
00:41:45 for the first time and so on.
00:41:46 You could do a lot of stuff where you make fun
00:41:49 of your appearance in some way and so on.
00:41:51 But like, yeah, you could do that.
00:41:53 You know, that takes actually, that’s way harder
00:41:56 than people realize to do it in an original way.
00:41:59 Yes.
00:42:00 You have to present who you are as a person very quickly,
00:42:05 enough to then put that person down
00:42:07 in front of everybody else.
00:42:09 So you have to reveal the.
00:42:11 The audience is like that,
00:42:12 cause they go, he knows what we’re thinking.
00:42:13 Yeah, exactly.
00:42:15 But do it again in an original way.
00:42:17 And so like when I’m trying to write stuff,
00:42:19 when I, not that I’ve tried long, it’s like 30 minutes,
00:42:23 but as enough to see like, oh shit,
00:42:27 to write something original is really difficult.
00:42:29 It is, but do you got a bit, anything?
00:42:32 No.
00:42:33 You didn’t write any one line or anything?
00:42:34 For this?
00:42:35 No.
00:42:36 Well, just in general, ever in your life,
00:42:37 ever written a joke?
00:42:38 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:39 Oh, okay.
00:42:40 No, but I don’t have anything in my mind popped up.
00:42:42 So the jokes that I’ve written have more,
00:42:47 like for some reason my mind goes to like dark places.
00:42:50 So, you know, like, and not actually dark
00:42:55 in the Mark Norman dark, because you go really dark
00:42:59 to where it’s like almost absurd.
00:43:01 Yes.
00:43:02 My natural inclination is to go to like
00:43:05 a dark historical like place, like Hitler and Stalin.
00:43:11 Yeah.
00:43:12 And almost, so go to that place
00:43:15 and then talk about something absurd there.
00:43:20 So like, don’t go like all the way, I don’t know.
00:43:27 I don’t want to give examples because it’d be clipped,
00:43:29 but the Mark Norman style, look it up.
00:43:33 He has a special on his YouTube, that kind.
00:43:37 I want to almost explore the dark aspects
00:43:39 of human nature more kind of connected
00:43:42 to actual historical figures.
00:43:44 That’s the inclination.
00:43:47 Like, I don’t know, Nature’s Metal,
00:43:48 the Instagram channel that explores
00:43:51 like the darkness of nature, like something there.
00:43:55 See, that’s good that you already know
00:43:57 that you’ve kind of gotten to the core
00:43:59 of your comedy already.
00:44:00 And that’s interesting, that’s a step ahead.
00:44:03 Yeah, I can hear, with most things that I do in life,
00:44:05 I can like hear the music from a distance,
00:44:08 like in myself, like, okay, if you have anything,
00:44:12 this is the direction it’ll be
00:44:13 without actually knowing exactly all the steps.
00:44:16 And that’s a nice motivation to be like, all right,
00:44:18 well, if you do this for a long time,
00:44:19 maybe you’ll have a chance to get there.
00:44:21 Right.
00:44:22 But you have to, that’s where it’s a feature
00:44:25 to be super self critical, I think.
00:44:27 Yes.
00:44:28 But then that’s why it’s fucking terrifying
00:44:30 to walk up to a stage, stand there,
00:44:33 and probably forget everything.
00:44:34 Yeah, that’s the other part nobody thinks about.
00:44:36 Just goes right out of your head.
00:44:37 You go fight or flight, it’s ugly.
00:44:39 My first years were horrific bombing, horrific stammering,
00:44:43 horrific not remembering the punchline.
00:44:45 Like, you got to, maybe you got a set up going
00:44:48 and they’re kind of on board and you’re like,
00:44:49 ah, how’s that, ah, camera, camera out it goes.
00:44:51 And you just hate yourself, it’s a nightmare.
00:44:55 But you’ve already kind of,
00:44:57 maybe if you haven’t done standup or whatever,
00:44:58 but you kind of know your voice and that’s pretty advanced.
00:45:02 So you’re not trying to be somebody else, I guess.
00:45:05 Yeah, just for having done like podcasts
00:45:07 and lecture and so on.
00:45:09 That helps.
00:45:09 I’ve embarrassed, I’ve already done some of the work
00:45:12 of the standups do, which is embarrass yourself
00:45:15 in front of others for prolonged periods of time.
00:45:17 Yes.
00:45:18 Yeah, so I’ve done that without actually developing
00:45:21 the funny.
00:45:22 Right, right, right.
00:45:23 But maybe the funny just is not that difficult to develop.
00:45:28 No, it’s super difficult, of course,
00:45:30 but I mean, maybe the essential work
00:45:32 of a standup comedian is just the embarrassment
00:45:34 of like finding who you are.
00:45:36 Yeah, that’s a part of it for sure.
00:45:37 You know, in the beginning you’re like,
00:45:39 water bottle, what’s funny about water bottle?
00:45:41 Hmm, I’m a funny guy, I can make this funny,
00:45:42 but that ain’t, that’s not it, you know?
00:45:44 It’s your shit, your shit, like your dark stuff.
00:45:47 For me, I tend to gravitate towards dark,
00:45:50 but in a weird way where, you know,
00:45:52 people will say like, hey, don’t objectify women.
00:45:54 But then they go, Caitlyn Jenner’s beautiful.
00:45:57 And you’re like, well, wait, I know something’s off here.
00:46:00 Why can you objectify her, but not the supermodel?
00:46:05 So what’s going on there?
00:46:06 And I like to play with that.
00:46:08 So I have this joke where I say, Caitlyn Jenner,
00:46:12 oh, women go, Caitlyn Jenner’s beautiful, beautiful woman.
00:46:15 I go, well, you look like her, and they go, fuck you.
00:46:17 And you’re like, there’s a lot of truth there.
00:46:20 But I like exploring that kind of,
00:46:23 oh, you’re trying to get one over on me,
00:46:24 or you’re lying to yourself, or what are we doing here?
00:46:27 And I like that kind of comedy.
00:46:30 I don’t see color, well, I’m black.
00:46:31 No, you’re not.
00:46:32 Ah, you know, that’s fun, because you’re lying.
00:46:37 Yeah, okay, so like big time comedians such as yourself
00:46:42 don’t like to think of yourself in this way, but.
00:46:45 There we go.
00:46:45 Yeah, this is like where you over philosophize comedy, but.
00:46:50 Yeah, definitely.
00:46:51 It seems like comedians.
00:46:55 Don’t say important.
00:46:56 Nothing worse than a comedian who thinks they’re important.
00:46:58 Yeah, so I was going, I was trying to find,
00:47:00 as I was trying to say these words,
00:47:01 I realized how cliche it is and how uninteresting it is.
00:47:06 So I’m going to just, but there is something.
00:47:09 I’m worried this whole thing is uninteresting.
00:47:10 I’m like, who cares about comedy?
00:47:12 There’s like six comics on the planet.
00:47:13 That nobody cares.
00:47:15 Okay, I trust you in the pilot seat.
00:47:17 You know what you’re doing.
00:47:18 You got listeners.
00:47:20 They’ve tuned out long ago.
00:47:22 Oh, you got Dan Carlin on here, huh?
00:47:24 Is he around?
00:47:25 Yeah, we’re just going back and forth on Twitter just now.
00:47:28 He’s a huge fan.
00:47:29 He was on here before.
00:47:30 He’ll be back.
00:47:31 I’ve been actually really trying to volunteer myself
00:47:35 aggressively with Dan Carlin for like a Russian episode
00:47:40 where I can speak Russian.
00:47:42 There’s certain documents.
00:47:44 I talked with Jaco about this too.
00:47:46 Certain things, I mean, I just love the challenge
00:47:49 of bringing Russian documents that I can read in Russian
00:47:52 and then can translate and can try to capture
00:47:55 the depth of the writing in the Russian language
00:48:01 and communicate to the American audience.
00:48:03 So much is lost in translation.
00:48:05 Like there’s so much pain and poetry in the Russian language.
00:48:09 It’s just connected to the culture.
00:48:10 Every language, not every language,
00:48:13 but many languages are uniquely able to capture
00:48:18 the culture of the people.
00:48:19 I mean, in some way they’re the representation
00:48:21 of the culture of the people.
00:48:23 And so Russian is definitely that,
00:48:24 like represents the full history and culture
00:48:26 of the 20th century with all the atrocities,
00:48:28 all the broken promises, all those kinds of things.
00:48:32 Norm says Russian literature is,
00:48:35 it’s the most tapped into human existence than anything else.
00:48:39 Norm.
00:48:40 McDonald.
00:48:41 Yeah.
00:48:41 The Russian literature guy.
00:48:43 Dostoevsky, all that shit.
00:48:46 It’s funny that there is a gap with comedians too.
00:48:48 There’s a culture of Russian comedy,
00:48:50 like standup comedians that are totally.
00:48:52 Is that right?
00:48:53 Yeah, yeah.
00:48:54 I don’t know these Russians.
00:48:55 I mean, I don’t know today.
00:48:57 I mean, more from the 80s and 90s and there’s a.
00:49:00 Yakov.
00:49:02 That’s all I know.
00:49:03 That’s not, so there’s like a force, that’s.
00:49:06 I’ve never seen you that offended.
00:49:08 No, no, no, it’s not offended.
00:49:09 There’s a different, there’s like the kinesins
00:49:16 and there’s the edgy.
00:49:18 Is that Russian?
00:49:20 What do you mean?
00:49:21 Wait, I thought you said there was Russian comics.
00:49:23 Yeah, Russian, I mean, I’m comparing them.
00:49:25 I’m giving you like a style of darkness,
00:49:29 like that’s the kind of people that kind of challenge.
00:49:33 They give, again, this is to how important comedians are,
00:49:37 is they give a voice to people where in the Soviet Union,
00:49:42 you really can’t like express your opposition
00:49:46 to the government.
00:49:47 And so comedians are exceptionally important there
00:49:52 for just, I don’t know, channeling the anger,
00:49:55 even when sometimes it’s not the actual opposition
00:49:57 to the government, they’re just channeling the anger,
00:50:00 the frustration with the absurdity of life.
00:50:02 Like, you know, when there’s a shortage of food,
00:50:05 shortage of jobs, the absurdity of the bureaucracy,
00:50:10 like the top heavy government,
00:50:13 just all of that can only sometimes be expressed
00:50:17 with like dark, absurd humor.
00:50:20 And that actually, why there’s a culture
00:50:22 of that kind of humor, you know,
00:50:24 you gather around the table with vodka
00:50:27 and all you can do is just talk shit and just.
00:50:31 Be offensive, say horrible shit, ball bust.
00:50:35 I mean, I make school shooting jokes
00:50:36 and people go, how do you do that?
00:50:37 I’m like, well, maybe that’s how I deal with it.
00:50:39 Yeah.
00:50:40 You know, like how come I gotta empathize the way you do?
00:50:45 Maybe we’re different.
00:50:47 All right, so now let’s skip the whole open mic thing
00:50:50 and crafting jokes.
00:50:53 Oh yeah, that’s tough.
00:50:55 Kerouac said, one day I will find the right words
00:50:59 and they will be simple.
00:51:02 When do you know the joke is done, it’s perfect.
00:51:05 You’re somebody that does like really sharp,
00:51:08 like fast jokes.
00:51:11 Wow. Oh, thanks.
00:51:13 So like there’s somebody, I don’t know,
00:51:15 I don’t know who you see yourself in the same school as,
00:51:18 like you’re darker and faster than Hedberg, I think,
00:51:24 in terms of like, just, I don’t know,
00:51:26 the turns you take are very fast.
00:51:29 Thanks, I appreciate it.
00:51:30 I think I got some Norm Macdonald and maybe.
00:51:32 Oh, Norm, that’s right.
00:51:33 You know, obviously Norm,
00:51:34 but Chris Rock was huge for me.
00:51:36 Chris Rock, old like 90s Chris Rock was like,
00:51:40 I didn’t know you could do jokes like that.
00:51:41 I always loved George Carlin and Groucho Marx
00:51:44 and Bill Murray, there’s so many different types of comedy.
00:51:47 But when I saw the bigger and blacker bring the pain,
00:51:50 I was like, oh my God, this is like, it hit me.
00:51:54 So that was big.
00:51:54 And then Norm’s just like the funniest guy on the planet.
00:51:57 So him being the smartest guy in the room,
00:51:59 but acting dumb was great.
00:52:01 So yeah, Chris Rock has that way of cutting to the bullshit,
00:52:06 which I mentioned earlier.
00:52:08 I liked that cutting through the bullshit
00:52:09 kind of style of comedy, because you kind of go,
00:52:12 oh, I’m not crazy.
00:52:13 That’s what I thought too.
00:52:15 I was too scared to say it, but I thought that.
00:52:16 And he’s saying it in a room of people are laughing.
00:52:19 Maybe I’m not an idiot.
00:52:21 So that helped me.
00:52:22 So it’s observational, but not Jerry Seinfeld
00:52:27 observational, it’s like going to the darker thing.
00:52:30 To like within society.
00:52:32 But I like him too, but seeing it,
00:52:34 doing it about stuff like in your life, society.
00:52:38 Yeah, race, gender, government, politics,
00:52:42 all that kind of stuff.
00:52:43 Exactly, exactly, sex, human emotions,
00:52:46 jealousy, whatever it is, that’s the good stuff.
00:52:50 How’d you feel when Norm passed away?
00:52:52 Ah, that was a bummer because he was, you know what, 61.
00:52:57 And I just didn’t see it coming.
00:53:00 And I just, I’ve watched so many hours of his stuff
00:53:04 and I’ve met him and he’s like,
00:53:07 he was like this comedic bar, like, hey, we got Norm.
00:53:09 You know, there’s so much shit comedy.
00:53:10 Then you see Norm and you’re like, this is next level.
00:53:13 This is savant type shit.
00:53:15 And then to lose him is like, ah, Norm had 20 more years
00:53:19 at least of just content and content and thoughts
00:53:23 and his point of view.
00:53:24 And that’s, we’ll never get that and that sucks.
00:53:27 Yeah, there is something about artists
00:53:29 like Jimi Hendrix dying too early.
00:53:32 It’s like, you wonder.
00:53:34 What was next?
00:53:35 Yeah, what was next?
00:53:36 But then part of it is like, you know,
00:53:39 it all ends for all of us and it’s like walking away early
00:53:44 is kind of admirable.
00:53:47 It’s almost like I did a pretty good job.
00:53:50 Yeah.
00:53:51 I’m good with that.
00:53:53 And especially the way he did, which is not telling anybody.
00:53:56 I know, nine years, his best friends didn’t even know.
00:53:59 And in this world of like victimhood
00:54:01 and I need clicks and I need people to love me,
00:54:03 he could have, he got, you know, canceled
00:54:05 and yelled at and in trouble
00:54:06 and he could have pulled that cancer card and he never did.
00:54:09 I mean, the integrity on this motherfucker.
00:54:11 Did you get a chance to interact with him?
00:54:13 Like what, how often did you meet him?
00:54:15 I met him once at the Comedy Cellar
00:54:17 and we chatted for five minutes
00:54:19 and then he went on and did the Letterman set that he did.
00:54:21 He was running the Letterman set.
00:54:23 And sweet guy, nice guy, didn’t know him that well,
00:54:26 but I mean, he’s just brilliant.
00:54:29 And I also love a brilliant guy who does stupid stuff.
00:54:33 That’s a fun, fun little combo there.
00:54:36 Like silly guys who are actually brilliant also.
00:54:40 You know, like Louis CK is a brilliant comic
00:54:42 and he’ll do a joke about farting on a kid.
00:54:45 And you’re like, that’s great
00:54:46 that he still finds farts funny
00:54:49 and he’s also this comedic genius guy.
00:54:52 I like that.
00:54:53 And doesn’t really acknowledge the genius.
00:54:55 Yeah, yeah.
00:54:57 Yeah, I like smart people, they’re silly.
00:55:00 Yes, that’s a good combo.
00:55:02 Like you said, Elon is silly.
00:55:04 Yeah, yeah, super silly. Yeah, that’s great.
00:55:06 Cause we taught, we teach kids like,
00:55:08 hey, put that down, stop that,
00:55:10 quit cutting up, quit horsing around.
00:55:12 But maybe that’s some kind of sign of brilliance there.
00:55:14 Yeah, being like childlike and silly is a kind of wisdom.
00:55:19 I feel like those people are way wiser
00:55:21 than the people that, no offense to me,
00:55:23 wear a suit and take themselves way too seriously.
00:55:26 No, but you got a spark in you.
00:55:28 A little bit.
00:55:29 You got a little, what’s the word?
00:55:31 Not elf, imp.
00:55:34 Little imp in you.
00:55:35 Give that a go.
00:55:36 You know what imp?
00:55:38 Little mischievous, it’s like a little.
00:55:40 Is that a Tolkien character, imp?
00:55:43 Yeah, might be.
00:55:44 An imp is a European mythological being
00:55:45 similar to a fairy or a demon.
00:55:47 Are you calling me a fairy?
00:55:49 Frequently, no, okay.
00:55:50 Similar to a fairy or a demon.
00:55:53 I feel like that’s a big leap.
00:55:55 Big leap, yeah, that’s not a great info bio there.
00:55:58 Frequently described in folklore and superstition,
00:56:01 the word may perhaps derive from the term imps,
00:56:04 but with a Y, used to denote a young grafted tree.
00:56:09 It’s a little mischievous.
00:56:11 You got a twinkle.
00:56:12 You’re the serious buttoned up guy,
00:56:13 but there’s a twinkle.
00:56:14 There’s a twinkle.
00:56:16 And the audience can see the twinkle,
00:56:17 and that’s why you resonate, I think.
00:56:21 I’m sorry.
00:56:22 Deep Analysis by Mark Norman, Psychological Analysis.
00:56:25 Okay, but then back to the crafting of the joke.
00:56:28 You said Chris Rock and Norm Macdonald.
00:56:30 What for you, how do you know when the joke is done?
00:56:35 Are there some jokes that you’re proud of?
00:56:37 Wow, that’s well done.
00:56:40 Yeah, the joke is done.
00:56:43 It’s a tough question
00:56:44 because there’s so many different kinds of jokes.
00:56:45 There’s what we call a chunk, which is a big idea
00:56:48 with a bunch of jokes in the middle of it,
00:56:50 and then a big crescendo at the end.
00:56:53 Or there’s a one liner,
00:56:54 or there’s a tag of a joke that’s also a joke.
00:56:57 So the jokes come in different,
00:57:01 like I have a joke where I say,
00:57:02 I met my girl in that Jewish app.
00:57:04 What’s that Jewish app called?
00:57:06 PayPal.
00:57:08 Nice.
00:57:08 That’s the hell, that’s what they’re asking you
00:57:11 to want from the crowd, but it’s a fun turn
00:57:15 because you say your thing
00:57:17 and then I hit you with a misdirect
00:57:18 and that’s what a joke is.
00:57:19 A joke is basically me saying something that makes sense,
00:57:22 but you didn’t see it coming.
00:57:24 And that’s a perfect example of that.
00:57:26 So that joke took forever to figure out, by the way.
00:57:29 You have to go to different services like PayPal.
00:57:32 What’s funniest?
00:57:33 Exactly, and I figured PayPal is funny
00:57:35 because it has the word pay in it.
00:57:38 Venmo, it’s also not really a good word, Venmo, PayPal.
00:57:42 It just hits better.
00:57:43 Yeah, PayPal is funnier somehow.
00:57:44 It’s funnier somehow,
00:57:45 and that’s the beauty of comedy.
00:57:46 There’s a weird little magic into it.
00:57:47 You can get technical all day and formulaic,
00:57:50 but there’s still that little bit of fairy dust
00:57:53 that you don’t know why this is funnier.
00:57:55 Or imp dust.
00:57:56 Imp dust, yes.
00:57:58 With a Y, okay.
00:58:00 So you know what joke is done when it kills,
00:58:02 and this is a roundness to a joke
00:58:04 when you feel like this is buttoned up.
00:58:06 This is done here.
00:58:07 Is simplicity the right word there?
00:58:09 Yeah.
00:58:10 Is it like you’re chopping stuff away
00:58:12 or are you adding stuff?
00:58:13 Like what does it feel like?
00:58:14 Simplicity is always the best angle.
00:58:17 I mean, you can get real high concept with a joke
00:58:19 and still make it work, but the simpler the better.
00:58:22 I saw Dave Chappelle on stage once,
00:58:24 and Chris Rock and Demetri Martin were in the back
00:58:28 watching in awe, and Dave Chappelle,
00:58:30 I can’t remember the joke,
00:58:31 but he said something about sex or women,
00:58:33 and Demetri Martin goes, eh, it’s a little easy.
00:58:36 And Chris Rock goes, that’s why it’s good.
00:58:39 And I remember hearing that as some young comic,
00:58:41 like ah, I’m getting this comedy lesson right here
00:58:44 for these two titans.
00:58:46 And so that was fun.
00:58:47 Simple is key.
00:58:48 So the easy is okay.
00:58:50 That’s such a weird, I think I remember reading
00:58:55 or hearing Eminem say something about
00:58:57 maybe the song Slim Shade.
00:58:58 One of the songs, he’s like, I knew it was gonna be good
00:59:02 because it got really repetitive
00:59:05 and annoying very quickly or something like that.
00:59:08 I mean, that’s the sort of the music equivalent
00:59:10 of it’s too easy.
00:59:12 Like if it’s like super catchy, as a musician,
00:59:16 you might get very quickly bored of it.
00:59:19 Or like as you’re creating it, no, it’s too easy.
00:59:23 It’s like there needs to be some more complexity to it.
00:59:26 I like complexity, but the best guys
00:59:28 who are the ones who make complex shit look simple.
00:59:33 Like you ever heard that Ben Franklin story
00:59:36 where he’s talking to his friend,
00:59:37 his friend’s like, I’m gonna start a hat store.
00:59:39 So he puts a sign out, says, hats for sale, $12.
00:59:43 And Ben Franklin looks at it, he goes,
00:59:46 well, you don’t need the $12
00:59:47 because all they need to know is that you got hats for sale.
00:59:50 He’s like, all right.
00:59:50 So he loses the $12, makes a new sign, hats for sale.
00:59:53 And he goes, you don’t really need for sale
00:59:55 because it’s a business.
00:59:57 People can put that together.
00:59:58 So he just goes, all right.
00:59:59 He makes a new sign, it says hats.
01:00:01 And then Ben Franklin’s like, you know,
01:00:03 you don’t really need the word hat.
01:00:05 You can just put a picture of a hat.
01:00:07 And he made a new sign, which is a picture of a hat
01:00:08 and it like helped the business or something.
01:00:10 That’s like some old wives tale or whatever.
01:00:12 But I think about that all the time when I’m writing.
01:00:14 I thought this was going to like, there was no sign.
01:00:17 It went like super like nihilistic.
01:00:19 Oh, maybe, maybe, that could work too.
01:00:23 What, like as a comedian, so I’m a fan of yours.
01:00:26 I enjoy, I really enjoy you in conversations.
01:00:29 Wow.
01:00:30 Now I’m getting nothing out of it.
01:00:31 This is like emotion.
01:00:35 You’re tough not to read.
01:00:36 Cold inside.
01:00:38 I mean, just the quickness you have,
01:00:40 obviously you’re also a great stand up comedian.
01:00:43 What’s your favorite medium to shine in?
01:00:46 So you have a podcast yourself, an excellent podcast.
01:00:51 You’re often a podcast guest.
01:00:53 Yeah.
01:00:55 Which is always fun to listen to,
01:00:56 how you’re going to deal with the different people.
01:00:58 You’re great on Rogan.
01:01:00 Oh, thanks.
01:01:02 What do you enjoy most?
01:01:04 Podcasts are great because you can stretch out a little more.
01:01:07 You can breathe a little.
01:01:08 You know, with a stand up set,
01:01:09 I like to be like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
01:01:11 But podcasts are great because it’s conversational.
01:01:14 So you can be, it’s almost like you’re being funny
01:01:16 with your friends.
01:01:18 Whereas a stage is like a, this is a piece.
01:01:20 This is a presentation.
01:01:22 But I think the podcast is great,
01:01:25 but you don’t get the reaction.
01:01:26 Unless the host is laughing, you can’t hear the guy
01:01:29 in his car in New Jersey driving to work going, ah!
01:01:32 Every now and then I’ll read a comment like,
01:01:33 I spit out my coffee when you said this.
01:01:35 And I’m like, but it’s not immediate.
01:01:37 You want the immediate.
01:01:38 So stand up will always be number one,
01:01:40 but there’s no better feeling than killing in a room
01:01:44 of people who don’t know who you are.
01:01:46 Strangers, you’re in the middle of nowhere.
01:01:48 You left your wife at home.
01:01:49 You left your kids.
01:01:50 You left your house.
01:01:51 You’re in the middle of bumfucked Dickville
01:01:54 and murdering for these hillbilly nobody, whatever it is.
01:01:58 And they’re slinging their beers and cheering you on.
01:02:02 And they carry out and you fuck some fat lady
01:02:05 and you leave and you get back to your hotel
01:02:07 and you go, holy shit, what was that?
01:02:09 No one will ever know about it.
01:02:10 Just lost in the ether.
01:02:12 That’s the best feeling.
01:02:14 Yeah.
01:02:15 Killing an obscurity as Bill Burr would say.
01:02:19 Yeah, this is one of the things that sucks
01:02:20 about giving lectures.
01:02:22 Like at universities or giving lectures in general
01:02:27 is when you look at the audience, you know,
01:02:31 several hundred students,
01:02:33 they all have a bored look on their face.
01:02:36 Yeah, of course.
01:02:36 Like my face now probably looks bored,
01:02:40 but I’m actually excited to be talking to you.
01:02:42 But there’s something about just,
01:02:45 there’s something about a comedy called,
01:02:46 maybe this is the contingent of laughter,
01:02:49 but like it gives people the freedom to just laugh,
01:02:51 to like, to remove that facade of like,
01:02:54 you don’t have to pretend like you don’t care.
01:02:58 Like if you care, you can show it
01:02:59 and you can have fun with it a lot.
01:03:01 Probably liquor helps out too.
01:03:03 Yeah, it helps for sure.
01:03:05 But there is a, especially,
01:03:06 and that’s why comedy I think is so popular right now
01:03:09 because HR is up our ass.
01:03:12 We’re scared of old tweets that might come back to haunt us.
01:03:15 What did I say on that interview?
01:03:17 Even people at offices are like,
01:03:18 I put something on Facebook in 1999
01:03:22 that was about fat tits that I liked.
01:03:24 Should I get rid of that?
01:03:25 Even people say like, there’s no cancel, whatever.
01:03:28 There is something in the air right now
01:03:30 that wasn’t there before.
01:03:32 It’s the video, I’m a Karen,
01:03:34 I got caught at Trader Joe, whatever it is.
01:03:36 People rat on each other now,
01:03:37 everybody’s tattletaling because they want the clicks.
01:03:40 It’s a horrible society we’ve crafted.
01:03:42 But standup comedy gets you to come out,
01:03:46 and now people do it at standup shows too.
01:03:48 Sadly, but it gets you to come out
01:03:50 and let that inhibition down.
01:03:52 Because we’re all human,
01:03:53 we’ve all had the fucked up thoughts like,
01:03:55 man, that guy’s fat as shit.
01:03:56 It doesn’t mean you hate the guy,
01:03:57 it doesn’t mean you hate fat people,
01:03:58 it doesn’t mean you’re fat shaming.
01:04:00 But you can’t say that at the office.
01:04:01 You can’t go, Bob, you’re fat as shit.
01:04:03 You’ll get fired for body shaming.
01:04:04 But at the club, you go, that guy’s fat as shit.
01:04:08 The crowd goes, he is fat as shit.
01:04:10 And it’s this weird cathartic thing
01:04:12 because all we do is tamp shit down.
01:04:14 It’s kind of like you ever meet a girl
01:04:15 who’s like all prim and proper in the bedroom.
01:04:17 She’s like, put a lamp up my ass.
01:04:18 Ah, you know, whatever it is.
01:04:20 It’s because we gotta get it out.
01:04:22 We’re all repressed in some way.
01:04:24 So I guess what you’re saying is comedy’s important.
01:04:27 Yes, callback.
01:04:31 All right.
01:04:32 Well played, sir.
01:04:33 Yeah.
01:04:34 What do you think about Austin?
01:04:35 What do you think about the comedy scene in Austin?
01:04:37 We talk about LA and New York.
01:04:39 What do you think about what Joe’s trying to create there?
01:04:42 So I should say that the reason I moved to Austin,
01:04:46 I have this dream of, it wouldn’t be funny
01:04:48 if I said this dream of becoming a comedian.
01:04:50 Oh, yeah.
01:04:51 It’s an audience, at least.
01:04:53 Yeah, that’s true.
01:04:55 You know, I always said you can hear
01:04:56 the music in the distance.
01:04:57 I have this dream around robotics
01:04:59 and artificial intelligence, whether it’s a company,
01:05:01 whether it’s something else that I was just pulling me to.
01:05:05 I actually wanted to move to San Francisco,
01:05:06 and then all my friends in San Francisco said,
01:05:08 no, it’s the wrong place.
01:05:09 Yeah.
01:05:12 At this time, the cynicism there
01:05:16 is just not conducive to taking big leaps
01:05:20 into the unknown, excited about the future kind of thing.
01:05:23 And Austin was that, for me in particular with Elon Musk,
01:05:28 but also just the energy that everybody had,
01:05:30 including Joe, the excitement about the future.
01:05:34 I don’t care if Austin burns to the ground
01:05:37 and it actually is a complete failure.
01:05:39 Being excited about the future seems to be,
01:05:42 like optimism about the future,
01:05:44 seems to be the thing that actually
01:05:47 makes that future happen, makes a great future happen.
01:05:49 So it’s always cool for me to see Joe
01:05:53 super excited about creating a culture in Austin,
01:05:57 like making it a comedy hub.
01:06:01 I don’t want to overstate it,
01:06:02 but I think he really believes it’ll be
01:06:05 a very big place for comedy in the United States
01:06:09 and generally in the world.
01:06:10 And so just even believing that, that’s powerful.
01:06:13 I agree.
01:06:14 You start to make it happen, that energy is there.
01:06:18 Anyway, so, but that’s for me from just an outsider
01:06:21 watching the fun of it.
01:06:23 I should also mention for less of an outsider,
01:06:26 more insider in the martial arts world,
01:06:29 partially probably because of Joe, I’m not sure,
01:06:32 like John Donahar, Gordon Ryan, the B Team,
01:06:36 all of those folks, those are, that might be gibberish
01:06:38 to you, but those are like some of the greatest grapplers
01:06:42 in martial artists of all time.
01:06:43 So it’s also becoming this hub of martial arts.
01:06:46 So the whole thing is just beautiful.
01:06:49 Anyway, what are your thoughts about that scene?
01:06:52 Well, there’s a lot here, a lot of things to mention.
01:06:55 One, I think Joe did do that to a degree,
01:07:00 like all these people, Segura lives there now,
01:07:03 a lot of comics live there.
01:07:04 He’s opening clubs, other clubs are opening.
01:07:07 I think it’s happening.
01:07:08 That’s the other thing is people go,
01:07:10 everybody’s moving to Austin, Austin’s the new hub.
01:07:12 And then they look at their watch and they go,
01:07:13 five minutes went by, nothing changed.
01:07:15 It’s gonna take years, but everybody wants it now, now, now.
01:07:20 What, Austin, there’s no industry there.
01:07:23 There’s no Netflix, whatever.
01:07:25 And you’re like, yeah, I know, but it needs a minute.
01:07:27 You can’t just do this overnight.
01:07:28 So people forget that.
01:07:30 So it could happen huge, just give it some time.
01:07:33 I mean, he’s opening a club, I went and saw it.
01:07:35 It’s incredible, like it’s so perfect for comedy.
01:07:37 It’s every detail, it’s incredible.
01:07:39 But so it could happen still.
01:07:44 I do think there’s a little biting off more
01:07:47 than they can chew with Austin because it’s not that big.
01:07:50 So like.
01:07:51 And it’s spread out.
01:07:52 I mean, yeah, it’s not big.
01:07:53 And the infrastructure is not quite there to support it.
01:07:57 But it has a lot of, comparing from the tech side,
01:08:03 it has a lot of land to expand into.
01:08:04 So it might become this. That helps.
01:08:07 Like you’re basically establishing,
01:08:08 it’s kind of like when you’re in New York,
01:08:10 you’re establishing these whole neighborhoods.
01:08:12 And you have the freedom to do that
01:08:14 because there’s a lot of space on all sides.
01:08:17 Yes, okay, so that helps.
01:08:18 So again, maybe some time.
01:08:22 I do agree with that new hope
01:08:24 that’s kind of built into human beings of like,
01:08:27 let’s go to America, let’s go to the utopia.
01:08:29 We even have it with space.
01:08:30 Let’s go to Mars.
01:08:32 We gotta see what’s over there.
01:08:33 And it’s just red, dusty bullshit, but you still gotta go.
01:08:37 So I’m with you on that about this new hope, this new land.
01:08:41 And I think that is beautiful.
01:08:42 And I think there’s a lot of haters.
01:08:43 I think there’s a lot of naysayers who hate change,
01:08:46 who hate anything new.
01:08:48 And then I think you gotta go, hey, that hurts, that sucks,
01:08:50 but blow me dickless.
01:08:53 I’m trying something.
01:08:54 You’re a loser.
01:08:55 Stop hating on me.
01:08:57 I mean, how many people hate Elon Musk?
01:08:59 Yeah, it’s hilarious.
01:09:00 I mean, there’s some of the criticism on Austin.
01:09:03 It’s like a fad.
01:09:04 Like a lot of people are really, people are excited
01:09:07 about Austin and somehow that’s like,
01:09:10 it’s like when Green Day became famous,
01:09:12 you no longer want to be a fan of Green Day.
01:09:15 But to me, like that’s…
01:09:17 Well, Austin was already a cool town.
01:09:18 Like every comic five years ago, it’s like,
01:09:21 oh, I got Austin this weekend, I can’t wait.
01:09:23 So it already had a buzz,
01:09:25 but some people think maybe the buzz was the cool part.
01:09:29 The fact that it was like this off the beaten path city
01:09:33 and now I get to visit it and then leave.
01:09:35 But I think it could still be
01:09:37 this comedy tech booming place.
01:09:40 It just will take some time and people want it right now.
01:09:43 Well, on the tech side, it’s…
01:09:46 It’s already there?
01:09:47 It’s getting there very fast.
01:09:50 So, I mean, Elon’s really pushing that with the factory.
01:09:53 It’s just a huge number of people are moving there with jobs.
01:09:58 Like you’re already starting.
01:10:00 And then the opportunities to launch new companies
01:10:03 is just incredible.
01:10:04 I guess it’s not right now.
01:10:05 It’s like within months, within a year, that kind of thing.
01:10:09 But like, it’s an opportunity to just
01:10:11 start to build shit in a new place.
01:10:14 And it’s cool.
01:10:15 It’s kind of like going to Mars.
01:10:17 It’s like you get to start over.
01:10:18 Yeah, and I like the hope aspect.
01:10:20 I think that’s huge for people.
01:10:22 And I’m all for it.
01:10:25 I hope it works out.
01:10:26 I don’t know if it will,
01:10:27 but I don’t know anything about economies
01:10:29 and city planning and all that shit.
01:10:32 So it might be too early to say, but I hope it works.
01:10:35 Are you still talking about Austin or Mars?
01:10:37 Austin.
01:10:38 Mars is, eh, there’s nothing there.
01:10:41 There’s no vagina there.
01:10:42 There’s no food there.
01:10:44 There’s no water there.
01:10:45 I don’t know.
01:10:45 It seems, I get space travel.
01:10:48 I think it’s important.
01:10:49 But I don’t know Mars is really gonna move the needle.
01:10:55 So what are your thoughts about Elon Musk and SpaceX
01:10:59 and launching rockets into space?
01:11:01 I think it’s all good because you could say,
01:11:04 hey, we could just feed everybody.
01:11:05 And I was like, yeah, that’s true.
01:11:07 By the way, these guys give a ton of money
01:11:08 to philanthropy shit that nobody cares about.
01:11:11 By the way, it’s weird.
01:11:13 He could feed Nigeria with pocket change of his.
01:11:17 And you’re like, well, maybe he has.
01:11:20 I heard Bill Gates gave back so much money
01:11:21 he saved 6 million lives.
01:11:23 But that’s a reverse Holocaust, by the way.
01:11:26 That’s pretty good.
01:11:27 What have you done?
01:11:28 You’re a barista.
01:11:29 So I just think space travel is good
01:11:34 because you learn about the place you’re living in
01:11:37 from going to space.
01:11:39 It kind of helps you learn about this more.
01:11:42 You could say, what’s the point of going to this other there?
01:11:44 But it does help, I think.
01:11:46 Yeah, doing difficult things in the engineering space
01:11:49 seems to be a way to develop as almost like an accident,
01:11:54 as a side effect of doing a really difficult thing
01:11:57 in a team of brilliant people.
01:11:58 You develop things like the internet.
01:12:01 And you could argue that the internet
01:12:02 maybe is not so good for society.
01:12:04 No, I’m just kidding.
01:12:05 It’s good and bad.
01:12:06 Yeah.
01:12:06 But it’s like a pull up.
01:12:07 You’re trying to get your bicep going,
01:12:09 but hey, before you know it, you got decent forearms.
01:12:12 But you weren’t working on the forearms,
01:12:13 you wanted to buy, but you got the fore.
01:12:15 And I think that’s kind of what space travel is.
01:12:18 I like how this pivoted into a workout routine advice.
01:12:22 I’m trying to get an analogy going here.
01:12:25 All right, they work pretty well.
01:12:26 I’ll take it.
01:12:27 All right.
01:12:28 What are your thoughts about, since I’m a robotics person,
01:12:32 I’d be curious to see, do you think about the space at all?
01:12:37 About, first of all, autonomous vehicles
01:12:39 with Tesla Autopilot and Waymo self driving car.
01:12:45 I’m not sure if you’re familiar
01:12:46 with all the autonomous vehicles and so on.
01:12:48 So those are robots on wheels.
01:12:51 And then there’s also legged robots.
01:12:52 So next time you’re in Austin,
01:12:54 you get to meet some of the legged robots.
01:12:56 That’s what I’ve been working on.
01:13:00 And I find those kind of a fascinating way
01:13:04 to explore the nature of intelligence in our computers,
01:13:10 but also explore our own intelligence
01:13:13 and also explore our own,
01:13:16 like what makes us connect to other living beings,
01:13:20 whether it’s dogs, cats, or other humans.
01:13:24 Like there’s some magic there
01:13:26 that’s beyond just intelligence.
01:13:27 And I, like when I have the robot dog,
01:13:30 there’s some aspect to it that, I don’t know,
01:13:34 brings me joy in a way that a dog does,
01:13:37 in a way that a good friend does.
01:13:38 Yeah, that’s interesting.
01:13:39 And I’m not sure if that’s some kind of anthropomorphism,
01:13:43 like where I’m projecting my hopes for this,
01:13:47 what this thing is, but it’s kind of built in.
01:13:50 I mean, it’s just a source of joy.
01:13:52 Maybe it’s connected to the fact
01:13:54 that there’s just like a loneliness
01:13:56 within all of us, within me.
01:13:58 And it’s just nice to have other things in your life
01:14:03 that move, that recognize you, that kind of thing.
01:14:05 I mean, I suppose it’s nice to even just have a plant.
01:14:09 Yeah, it is.
01:14:10 Plant goes a long way.
01:14:10 You see a guy with plants in his apartment,
01:14:12 it changes the apartment because they’re alive.
01:14:14 You gotta water them.
01:14:15 You gotta put sun on them.
01:14:15 So yeah, I think there’s something there.
01:14:17 And I think you can see people’s reactions
01:14:19 when you show them advanced technology,
01:14:22 like these dog robots or these robots that dance and shit.
01:14:25 People are like, what the fuck?
01:14:27 Like it hits home in some way, whether it’s fear
01:14:30 or you wanna fuck them clearly, whatever it is,
01:14:33 but it does connect with you in some way.
01:14:36 So I’m with you.
01:14:38 And I think this is why I don’t think robots will take over.
01:14:41 You always hear that robot, they’re making them too advanced.
01:14:42 They’re gonna wipe us out, blah, blah, blah.
01:14:45 If robots get at human emotions, that is scary
01:14:50 because they could get mad at us and kill us
01:14:52 and they’re stronger and they don’t need sleep.
01:14:53 They don’t need food.
01:14:54 They don’t need water.
01:14:55 They don’t get jealous.
01:14:56 But if they have emotions,
01:14:59 then I think we can dominate them
01:15:01 because who knows emotions better than us?
01:15:04 We’ve got thousands of years
01:15:05 of evolutionary emotional bullshit.
01:15:08 We can go, hey robot, I heard your wife
01:15:10 fucked that black and Decker, huh?
01:15:12 They’re gonna crumble.
01:15:13 We can bully them.
01:15:15 Emotionally manipulate robots.
01:15:16 Yes, that’s when we’ll win.
01:15:19 Right now, they could kill us.
01:15:21 They could just, we’d all die.
01:15:23 Then we shoot them back, bing, bing, bing, bing.
01:15:24 That’s no good.
01:15:25 But if they do get emotions, then we can go,
01:15:28 hey, you look like hell.
01:15:29 What is that, a rusty bolt?
01:15:30 Hey, you’re dropping some oil there, you loser.
01:15:32 I think we can win if they do get emotions.
01:15:35 This goes back to your father being able
01:15:37 to undercut you with a single word.
01:15:39 You’re right.
01:15:40 Yeah, so we’re the creators of the robots
01:15:42 and then the robots will just,
01:15:43 you would say the exact thing
01:15:46 where the robot would be like, that son of a bitch.
01:15:49 And then it goes back to his hole
01:15:51 and just sits there miserable.
01:15:52 Right, yeah, hardware looks more like software to me.
01:15:55 You can’t get it up, yada, yada, yada.
01:15:59 But I’m not worried about robots
01:16:00 and I think self, what do you think
01:16:01 about the self driving cars?
01:16:03 Is that just wiping out the horse and buggy?
01:16:06 Isn’t that just progression of technology?
01:16:09 Yeah, so I don’t know if you’ve driven in a Tesla,
01:16:11 for example.
01:16:12 I have, I rode in the passenger, I just drive it.
01:16:16 Yeah, there’s several stages in that.
01:16:18 I think it’s the problem is way harder than people realize.
01:16:20 And for quite a while,
01:16:22 it’ll just make driving more pleasant.
01:16:24 It’ll make it less stressful.
01:16:26 It’ll take over some of the boring bits for you
01:16:29 and make it easier.
01:16:30 Like there’s something that happens actually
01:16:31 when the car is driving for you in the following way.
01:16:36 Like it’s staying in the lane,
01:16:38 it’s keeping distance to the car in front of you.
01:16:40 Maybe it’s changing lanes.
01:16:42 It allows you to relax a little bit.
01:16:44 Like you become, you still have to be alert,
01:16:48 but you become like a passenger
01:16:49 and you get to like take in the world.
01:16:51 I mean, somehow that’s more relaxing
01:16:53 without making you necessarily like bored more.
01:16:58 It’s energizing more.
01:16:59 So I just think it makes the driving experience
01:17:01 more pleasant.
01:17:02 But when you actually fully automate cars,
01:17:05 when you can just completely tune out
01:17:06 and start reading a book or go to sleep,
01:17:09 that might change society like in ways
01:17:13 we don’t even understand.
01:17:15 Because you’ll have, I mean the,
01:17:20 it’ll probably change the nature of roads
01:17:22 because the cars, because now you can be super productive.
01:17:25 And so no longer quite matters to you
01:17:28 as much how long it takes to get from point A to point B
01:17:31 because you’re not wasting that time.
01:17:34 You just continue working.
01:17:37 It’s like public transit that comes to you.
01:17:40 And so there will be maybe less roads and bigger roads
01:17:43 and it will just change the nature of how we get
01:17:46 from point A to point B.
01:17:47 I think you’re right.
01:17:48 But then couple that also with the fact
01:17:50 that we seem to be more and more comfortable
01:17:53 existing in the digital world.
01:17:55 Yeah.
01:17:56 So like maybe we won’t want to go outside more and more.
01:17:59 We will just interact with each other virtually.
01:18:01 And I don’t mean Zoom meetings.
01:18:02 I mean, just in other ways that’s more fulfilling
01:18:09 than a Zoom meeting, but then maybe not
01:18:11 because like there’s something deeply uncompelling
01:18:15 about Zoom meetings.
01:18:16 Like podcasts that are remote,
01:18:19 unless they’re super information dense,
01:18:21 at least to me as a podcast fan, kind of suck.
01:18:24 They suck.
01:18:24 There’s no connection.
01:18:25 It goes back to the dog thing.
01:18:26 With the Zoom, there’s no connection.
01:18:28 Yeah.
01:18:29 And we’re not, you know, I don’t understand why
01:18:31 we’re not even making eye contact.
01:18:32 I know.
01:18:33 But it’s something there.
01:18:34 It’s in the room.
01:18:35 There’s pheromones.
01:18:36 And that’s like out of our understanding probably.
01:18:39 It’s just some kind of weird biological,
01:18:41 you know, you ever have Cheerios in a bowl?
01:18:43 The Cheerios tend to, they tend to go together.
01:18:47 You see a cluster of Cheerios.
01:18:48 They’re never really hanging out on the other side.
01:18:50 And that’s kind of how people are in real life.
01:18:53 I wonder what the physics of that is.
01:18:55 So they come together and they stick.
01:18:57 There’s so many with molecules.
01:18:59 I don’t know, I can’t remember what it was,
01:19:00 but it was fascinating.
01:19:01 And I think that’s how people are.
01:19:02 And I think you try to write a TV show
01:19:04 or craft a movie with your team, Zoom, nothing there.
01:19:09 Nothing there.
01:19:10 It’s like phone sex versus penetration.
01:19:14 One day you’ll learn that.
01:19:16 I know nothing of either of the,
01:19:18 I look forward,
01:19:19 because I think there’s a phone sex Netflix documentary
01:19:21 that there’s a show or something like that
01:19:23 that is really popular that I want to go watch.
01:19:27 So at least I can learn about that.
01:19:28 Okay.
01:19:29 I could send you some links.
01:19:31 Like really.
01:19:31 Oh, on the internet?
01:19:32 Yeah, yeah.
01:19:33 Yeah.
01:19:34 But yeah, self driving car.
01:19:36 I think it’s just inevitable.
01:19:37 It’s coming and these truckers
01:19:39 are going to have to figure something out.
01:19:42 Yeah.
01:19:42 I mean, that’s an under understood industry actually,
01:19:45 because there’s not,
01:19:47 there’s a lot of trucking jobs and people don’t want to,
01:19:50 well, people don’t want to actually take them anymore
01:19:52 because it’s such a difficult job.
01:19:53 So it won’t have,
01:19:56 or a lot of people believe it won’t have
01:19:58 as big of a negative impact as folks anticipate.
01:20:01 There’ll be other automation.
01:20:02 I think they’ll have a huge impact.
01:20:04 Yeah, for sure.
01:20:06 I mean, you already see it in McDonald’s.
01:20:07 You go to the beep, beep, beep.
01:20:08 Why do you want to get yelled at
01:20:09 by the heavyset woman of color,
01:20:11 you know, for making a bad order
01:20:13 when you can just, you know, hit the screen?
01:20:16 But those interactions I think are human.
01:20:19 I mean, that’s part of life.
01:20:20 So it is scary taking away everything.
01:20:22 How long till we’re not fucking?
01:20:24 That’s coming too.
01:20:25 Yeah.
01:20:26 Then there’s going to have two types of people.
01:20:27 Are you a fuck in real life?
01:20:29 Are you a digital fuck person?
01:20:31 Oh, I’m a digital.
01:20:32 Oh, I like real fucking.
01:20:33 Sorry, we can’t date.
01:20:34 That’s coming.
01:20:35 Well, there’s also the reproduction side of sex,
01:20:39 which is like with genetic engineering,
01:20:42 you’ll be able to specify a little bit of details.
01:20:45 I talked to Jamie Mertzel about that.
01:20:47 Like where you can specify like,
01:20:55 it’ll start with like,
01:20:56 I want my child not to have like a high likelihood
01:21:00 of diabetes or something like that.
01:21:02 And then you just get to specify like intelligence.
01:21:04 You just get to specify those kinds of parameters
01:21:07 until you’re like basically trying to create a perfect human
01:21:10 and you lose some of the magic of the flaws
01:21:12 that make us who we are.
01:21:13 Yes.
01:21:14 And you know, I’m pretty sure in the full lineup of humans,
01:21:19 like, so let me give you some information.
01:21:23 Lay it off me, buddy.
01:21:24 Break it down.
01:21:26 I’m sure you researched this thoroughly,
01:21:29 but a male of the human species,
01:21:33 the homo sapien produces 500 billion sperm cells
01:21:40 in a lifetime.
01:21:41 So that’s all, some more than others.
01:21:46 That’s all uniquely, genetically unique humans
01:21:50 that you could produce.
01:21:51 So even across those 500 billion, you can select.
01:21:55 And so.
01:21:56 What do you mean, like abort some or?
01:21:58 No, you can choose which of them you want.
01:22:00 I mean, just imagine all the genetic possibilities
01:22:03 that are there, like all of the possible,
01:22:05 like you won the race.
01:22:07 Yes.
01:22:09 Shocking.
01:22:10 Yeah, this is the winner.
01:22:11 Which one out of all the 500 billion?
01:22:13 You have to imagine what the competition was.
01:22:15 Oh, just tarts all day long.
01:22:18 Handicap.
01:22:19 Well, so it’s not actually the fastest sperm
01:22:23 or like it’s, I think a lot of it is timing and luck.
01:22:26 Ah.
01:22:27 That’s what it seems like.
01:22:28 There’s actual papers on this
01:22:29 and I’ve actually been reading them.
01:22:30 I hope so.
01:22:31 So it’s not just like the fastest sperm to the egg.
01:22:34 Okay.
01:22:34 There’s a timing thing.
01:22:36 So you were just lucky.
01:22:37 All right.
01:22:39 I believe that.
01:22:40 So it’s interesting to think about like,
01:22:42 once you’re able to specify some parameters
01:22:46 of what your child is like,
01:22:49 how that changes the nature of
01:22:53 even just like the intimacy of two humans getting together
01:22:57 and making, creating together a child.
01:23:02 Yeah.
01:23:03 I mean, it changes it.
01:23:04 It’s almost like, I don’t know,
01:23:06 it becomes like a factory line of some kind.
01:23:10 If you don’t meet naturally.
01:23:12 Yeah, if you don’t meet naturally and then you don’t
01:23:15 and you get to optimize your child,
01:23:18 then it’s some like you have to consider
01:23:21 utilitarian type of things,
01:23:23 like what’s good for society
01:23:25 and it’ll probably be regulation about what kind of children
01:23:28 you can have or not.
01:23:29 Like your child can not have an IQ below this
01:23:32 or above this or something like that.
01:23:34 Or your child can not.
01:23:35 We already kind of do that with VIP clubs.
01:23:39 Like, ah, you’re kind of ugly
01:23:40 or women go, hey, he’s not tall enough.
01:23:43 We kind of do it a little.
01:23:44 Yeah.
01:23:45 Especially sexually.
01:23:46 Yeah, we do.
01:23:47 Can’t get on the roller coaster
01:23:48 if you’re this short, whatever it is.
01:23:50 You know, we do it in some capacity.
01:23:52 But here, this would be like fully transparent
01:23:57 and to a degree that it’s hard to imagine.
01:24:00 Like the way we currently do it,
01:24:02 you can at least get around it.
01:24:03 Yes.
01:24:04 You can at least trick your way onto the roller coaster
01:24:07 even if you’re short.
01:24:08 Right.
01:24:09 Or the fat guy can get rich so he can get laid.
01:24:11 You know, there’s other ways.
01:24:14 At the risk of asking the totally wrong person
01:24:16 this question, what advice would you give
01:24:19 to young people today in high school and college
01:24:23 about how to have a successful career
01:24:26 or career they’re proud of
01:24:28 or maybe have a life that they’re proud of?
01:24:30 Ooh.
01:24:32 Well, first of all, you gotta be,
01:24:34 you gotta want a life you’re proud of.
01:24:35 Not everybody has any integrity.
01:24:38 A lot of people just want short money.
01:24:40 I wanna feel good, look good right now.
01:24:44 I wanna do Molly, boom, I’ll feel good, you know?
01:24:47 But you should space it out.
01:24:50 You should, it’s almost like saving money
01:24:51 so you can use it later.
01:24:53 Nobody wants to save money.
01:24:54 What do they say, like 11% of America
01:24:56 actually has money saved, $1,000 or some shit?
01:24:59 It’s wildly low.
01:25:01 Everybody wants it now, now, what do you call it?
01:25:04 Immediate gratification.
01:25:06 I think the key to happiness and satisfaction
01:25:10 is working for something.
01:25:12 Even if it’s, it’s like a baby.
01:25:14 If you could have a baby in five minutes,
01:25:16 if a woman, you got a, you jizzed in her
01:25:18 and she had a baby, oop, five minutes, boom.
01:25:21 Newborn, healthy.
01:25:23 I think you’d be more likely to throw it away
01:25:25 if you could make it that quick.
01:25:27 It’s the fact that you spent nine months backbreaking
01:25:30 the labor, the lactating, the ripped placenta
01:25:33 and the hymen or whatever the fuck.
01:25:36 That’s what makes you love it.
01:25:37 And I think it’s the same with comedy
01:25:38 or making money or whatever.
01:25:41 Look at these kids who like child stars.
01:25:43 They all become heroin addicts at like 22
01:25:46 because they’ve just, their sensors are burned out.
01:25:48 Their pleasure sensors.
01:25:49 You didn’t have to earn it.
01:25:51 I think earning it is a big part of life
01:25:53 and always try to do better, try to do more,
01:25:56 try to learn new things.
01:25:58 Hey, I’m bored.
01:25:59 Life sucks.
01:26:00 Play the piano then you chooch.
01:26:02 But you won’t do it because it takes effort
01:26:05 and failure and all that.
01:26:06 But that’s the good part.
01:26:08 And I know it’s hard to see.
01:26:10 So I think that’s a good key to life
01:26:13 is work hard at something you care about
01:26:16 and then love the result.
01:26:18 The hard work, the journey is actually way more important
01:26:22 than just getting something.
01:26:23 Everybody wants to go on Amazon.
01:26:25 I got a package.
01:26:26 Then you feel good for 10 seconds
01:26:27 and all right, let’s go on Amazon again.
01:26:29 And then it’s just a dumb cycle
01:26:31 of you being disgusting and gluttonous.
01:26:35 So work for it.
01:26:36 Everybody wants to take steroids and just boop, I’m buff.
01:26:39 Why’d you point at me?
01:26:40 Well, I’m just saying.
01:26:41 Because I’m Russian or what?
01:26:42 Well, I saw the Icarus.
01:26:45 But no, I’m not saying you’re on roids.
01:26:47 I’m just, you’d be way bigger.
01:26:48 But I’m just saying, you know, work for something.
01:26:52 And then I would also, young people eat shit early.
01:26:56 Eat shit early.
01:26:57 I know a guy who kind of got canceled or whatever
01:27:00 and he had an out early, but he tried to get by
01:27:03 and he tried to ride it and it all came crumbling down.
01:27:07 But if he had eaten it early, like, yeah, I fucked up.
01:27:09 I did that.
01:27:10 Whatever it was, he would’ve just kind of been shit on
01:27:14 for a month and then it would’ve gone away.
01:27:17 But now it’s his whole identity and that sucks.
01:27:19 So eat shit early.
01:27:21 And I know it’s hard to see, what do you mean early?
01:27:23 I’m in the present.
01:27:24 But look ahead, look back, this time will pass.
01:27:28 I mean, look at high school.
01:27:29 High school was the biggest thing in our lives.
01:27:31 Oh my God, this exam, Susie Q hates me.
01:27:33 The football player beat me up.
01:27:35 Oh, I’ll never recover.
01:27:36 Now you don’t even think about high school.
01:27:37 It’s just a blip in your dumb life, you know?
01:27:40 And that’s what this is now.
01:27:41 This will just be a blip.
01:27:42 So remember that and work towards something
01:27:46 and work hard and care about the result.
01:27:50 If the result isn’t good, try it again.
01:27:52 And failure is not always bad.
01:27:53 Failure, we look at failure as this end all, be all.
01:27:56 My life’s over, I failed.
01:27:58 But failure is really just learning.
01:28:01 So that’s something.
01:28:01 So in summary, eat shit early and eat shit often.
01:28:06 Yes.
01:28:07 All right, Mark Norman.
01:28:09 Eat ass.
01:28:11 That’s escalated quickly.
01:28:13 All right, I have a list of random questions for you.
01:28:16 What activities make you lose track of time?
01:28:19 Oh.
01:28:21 Have that go into that zone.
01:28:24 You have this happiness, contentment about you
01:28:26 that you just truly enjoy.
01:28:28 Yeah, I think a good conversation.
01:28:31 Like I’ll sit at the comedy cellar with friends,
01:28:34 maybe a little whiskey’s flowing.
01:28:36 And when you’re really just vibing
01:28:38 and inhibiting.
01:28:41 You can do it.
01:28:42 What is it?
01:28:43 Inhibited. Inhibited.
01:28:44 Uninhibited. Uninhibited.
01:28:45 When you’re just vibing and you’re uninhibited
01:28:47 and you’re saying crazy shit and you’re laughing
01:28:49 and you’re not worried, am I seeming cool right now?
01:28:51 Am I seeming likable?
01:28:52 When you’re just you 100% and it’s all coming out of you
01:28:56 and then they’re saying stuff and you go back and forth
01:28:58 and you feel that excitement.
01:28:59 Oh, they’re talking, but I wanna say my thing.
01:29:00 And you get all peed up.
01:29:02 I love that.
01:29:03 And I look at my watch, I’m like, fuck,
01:29:04 it’s three in the morning.
01:29:05 We’ve been talking for five hours.
01:29:07 So I love that.
01:29:09 That makes the time fly by.
01:29:10 Also, I bought a, speaking of self driving cars,
01:29:13 I bought a 1973 BMW car and it’s classic
01:29:18 and it’s stick shift and it’s grizzly and gritty and rusty
01:29:24 and it’s a bucket of bolts, but I love driving it.
01:29:26 Bucket of bolts.
01:29:27 Yeah.
01:29:28 You and Tom Waits are poets.
01:29:29 Have you taken like a long trip anywhere,
01:29:32 like road trip in your life or with this BMW?
01:29:35 Not with it, it’s pretty new,
01:29:37 but I will.
01:29:38 It’s a new 97.
01:29:39 Yeah, it’s new to me.
01:29:42 And it goes in the phase of everything we’re doing now.
01:29:45 Everything is digital, everything is automated,
01:29:47 everything is hands off, everything is delivered.
01:29:49 And this is the most hands on thing in the world.
01:29:52 And I am dialed in, man.
01:29:54 I got the tachometer, I keep an eye on that.
01:29:56 Oh, I put the wrong gear in, shit.
01:29:58 Oh, it’s about to stall, put some gas, put some clutch.
01:30:00 And it’s all just brain power and staying in focus
01:30:05 and all that, and it’s the opposite of tweeting
01:30:08 and texting and watching porn or whatever.
01:30:11 So I almost needed that in my life,
01:30:14 so I bought this car just to have this little exercise.
01:30:19 I hope you don’t mind that I’m just trying out
01:30:21 random questions I wrote on you that are completely insane.
01:30:25 I’m a guinea pig, jizz in my face.
01:30:27 Bring it on, baby.
01:30:30 This would be edited down to five minutes.
01:30:32 If everyone on earth disappeared
01:30:34 and it was just you left, what would your days look like?
01:30:39 What would you do?
01:30:40 That’s tough, because I’m already an introvert
01:30:43 and I try to avoid people mostly.
01:30:45 Like I like a one on one, but crowds and all that is tough.
01:30:50 So.
01:30:51 So basically unchanged?
01:30:52 Yeah, that’s what I was gonna say,
01:30:53 but then that’s the irony is I would be so sad
01:30:56 to not talk to anybody.
01:30:57 So it’s this weird, bittersweet thing,
01:30:59 but I don’t know what I would do, man.
01:31:01 I guess it’s kind of like when you’re hung over,
01:31:03 you just go into the primal survival mode.
01:31:06 I gotta get food, I need water, I’m horny, jerk off.
01:31:12 You just go, you’re not like playing the piano
01:31:15 or painting or at the gym.
01:31:17 So I think I would just go into urges, man, primal urges.
01:31:21 Find food, store food, am I safe?
01:31:24 Make weapons, build a shelter that I can’t get attacked in.
01:31:28 I would go all survival mode.
01:31:30 And then once I maybe realized if I was safe or not,
01:31:33 there’s no wild roaming dogs, I would start exploring.
01:31:37 And maybe somehow get a vehicle and I would try to expand
01:31:42 and that would be it.
01:31:43 And maybe I’d journal.
01:31:45 Exploring to what, to try to find new experiences?
01:31:49 New life, if there’s other,
01:31:51 maybe there is another guy out there.
01:31:53 Oh, so always there’s a possibility.
01:31:55 Yeah, hope.
01:31:56 Hope.
01:31:57 And then maybe there’s a better place I could live.
01:31:58 Let’s find that and then moving on.
01:32:01 Maybe there’s more food over here.
01:32:02 So yeah, the hope would drive me.
01:32:04 But it would be bleak and sad and horrible also.
01:32:07 So what you’re saying is you really want other people
01:32:09 to be there so you can hide from them, isn’t it?
01:32:11 Yes, yes, well said.
01:32:15 All right, what’s an item on your bucket list
01:32:17 that you haven’t done yet?
01:32:20 Think about something you’d be very upset if you died
01:32:23 and you haven’t done.
01:32:24 Well, I’m terrified of having kids,
01:32:27 just because I’m a child myself
01:32:28 and I’m selfish and lazy in a way.
01:32:31 So kids are like, this is your whole life now, this is it.
01:32:34 You gotta not let this thing die.
01:32:35 You gotta love it, you gotta raise it.
01:32:37 So kids scare the shit out of me,
01:32:39 but I also feel like if I don’t have them, I’ll regret it.
01:32:43 Well, you’ve seen so many people like you
01:32:46 who are fundamentally changed by kids.
01:32:48 Like it’s a source, it’s a source of,
01:32:52 like a deep source of happiness,
01:32:54 even though you didn’t anticipate it.
01:32:55 Yeah.
01:32:57 So you like, you penciled it into your bucket list.
01:32:59 Yes, yes.
01:33:01 You’re, it might be on there.
01:33:02 Okay.
01:33:03 You want kids?
01:33:04 Yeah, well, I want kids.
01:33:06 I wanna get married, I wanna have kids.
01:33:10 I kind of, I don’t like choice.
01:33:13 So in the following way,
01:33:15 like I appreciate the value of scarcity
01:33:18 and the power of scarcity.
01:33:19 Like I don’t like the modern dating culture.
01:33:22 It’s not some religious thing or whatever.
01:33:23 I just like one girl for a long time
01:33:27 or at least swinging for that always,
01:33:28 like swinging for the fences.
01:33:30 You could be swinging right now.
01:33:31 I mean, you’re.
01:33:32 There’s a different use of the word swinging.
01:33:34 Sure, sure.
01:33:34 What I’m saying, you could be clear.
01:33:35 You look great, you’re handsome.
01:33:37 Yeah, thank you.
01:33:38 Muscular.
01:33:39 Thank you.
01:33:40 You get the job done.
01:33:40 So I feel like you wouldn’t leave without an orgasm on her.
01:33:42 Yeah, but I just like to, you know, about furries.
01:33:45 I like to dress up as animals
01:33:46 and I just have trouble finding others who like the same.
01:33:50 They’re up there.
01:33:50 I could show you some chat rooms.
01:33:52 You’re also my coach for the internet.
01:33:54 Okay.
01:33:54 What are you most afraid of?
01:34:00 I guess on Unlived Life.
01:34:03 I was a big fan growing up of like wild guys, you know,
01:34:07 like these Teddy Roosevelt’s who would go out
01:34:10 and hunt lions and like bar fighting guys.
01:34:14 I was obsessed with the Hunter S. Thompson types.
01:34:17 And look, this is what I love about guys like,
01:34:21 who’s a good example?
01:34:23 Like Hemingway.
01:34:24 Hemingway was the manliest guy.
01:34:26 He had the rifle and the elephant gun and the whiskey
01:34:28 and the writing and the women and the fist fights.
01:34:31 But people forget that the other side of that coin
01:34:33 is I’m sure he was in a lot of hotel rooms weeping.
01:34:36 I’m sure he was lonely as fuck.
01:34:37 I’m sure he had some wicked hangovers.
01:34:39 I mean, he killed himself for Christ’s sake.
01:34:40 So obviously he was dealing with something.
01:34:42 So the key to me is having this adventurous life,
01:34:46 living to the fullest, doing crazy shit, scaring yourself,
01:34:50 but also not killing yourself.
01:34:52 Like also not hating,
01:34:54 because I used to party a lot hard.
01:34:56 I used to bang a lot of gals.
01:34:58 And the flip side is like, this girl hates you now,
01:35:02 or you got herpes or you’re hungover,
01:35:04 or your mom is like, where are you?
01:35:06 You never call me anymore.
01:35:07 You’re like, oh, my mom, let ties go with my mom.
01:35:10 I gotta connect.
01:35:11 So there’s a horrible side to the party animal.
01:35:14 The Keith Richards we don’t see is not pretty.
01:35:18 I mean, he’s already weird looking,
01:35:20 but he’s partying, he’s smoking, he’s living.
01:35:23 But there’s another side of that coin.
01:35:25 And I think the key to life
01:35:26 is living that fucking crazy, awesome, badass life,
01:35:30 and also having some meaning
01:35:34 and a little bit of, what’s the word?
01:35:38 Not just not killing yourself,
01:35:39 not going sad, not being depressed.
01:35:42 There’s a medium there, a sweet spot.
01:35:45 Does that make sense?
01:35:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:35:46 So taking big leaps and Hemingway,
01:35:51 grabbing life by the balls,
01:35:53 but at the same time, not crushing the balls,
01:35:54 does that metaphor work at all?
01:35:56 Perfect, like Evel Knievel, we all know him.
01:35:59 What a badass, fearless, oh, man, what a cool dude.
01:36:02 He’s got balls of steel.
01:36:03 But he also lived the back half of his life
01:36:05 in a fucking barka lounger
01:36:08 where his legs were made of steel
01:36:10 and he couldn’t see straight and his dick didn’t work.
01:36:13 So you know what I mean?
01:36:15 You gotta have a balance, but you still want the balance.
01:36:18 I’m willing to take a little bit of shit
01:36:20 for a little bit of fun,
01:36:23 but you don’t want to go too hard.
01:36:25 Well, you gotta still risk it.
01:36:27 I mean, Hunter S. Thompson, it didn’t end well.
01:36:30 Yeah.
01:36:31 But it was quite a ride.
01:36:32 Quite a ride.
01:36:34 What small act of kindness were you once shown
01:36:36 that you will never forget?
01:36:39 Wow, that’s a great question.
01:36:43 I just wrote these for the guinea pig.
01:36:44 You’re the guinea pig.
01:36:45 That’s great, that’s a keeper.
01:36:46 Keep that question. Okay, that’s a keeper?
01:36:48 Yeah.
01:36:48 This is where we’re like workshopping questions here.
01:36:50 All right, I’ll take it.
01:36:51 Now you’re open biking.
01:36:52 Yeah.
01:36:53 This is your version.
01:36:55 Let’s see, there’s a couple ladies in high school
01:36:57 who were kind enough to hand job me.
01:36:59 That was nice, which I really appreciate.
01:37:01 I don’t think women know how much that means to us.
01:37:04 You know, women are like,
01:37:05 oh, I’m not a piece of meat or whatever.
01:37:06 And you’re like, I know, but if you just gave me a hand job,
01:37:10 it would make my world.
01:37:10 It’s like telling a kid he’s smart or loved.
01:37:13 See, most people mention like a math teacher,
01:37:15 middle school, that would inspire them to get into science.
01:37:19 You give a shout out to the thing.
01:37:21 Well, that’s part of it, that’s not the nicest,
01:37:23 but I’m just saying that goes a long way.
01:37:25 All right.
01:37:26 Let’s see, kindness.
01:37:27 That’s a great question.
01:37:31 I wanna give you a good answer.
01:37:32 I got lost when I was like six.
01:37:35 I was walking around my dad and I zoned out and went away.
01:37:38 And next thing you know, I don’t know where I am.
01:37:41 I’m in a neighborhood.
01:37:42 This old guy finds me crying on a lawn somewhere
01:37:45 and he goes, come inside.
01:37:47 And he tried to call my parents and nothing came of it.
01:37:50 Eventually they found me after like nine hours,
01:37:53 cops were there, the FBI is out there, fucking helicopters.
01:37:57 And I guess, you know, that’s nice.
01:37:59 This old guy took me in for a couple of hours
01:38:01 and just sat me down and kept me safe.
01:38:05 That’s something.
01:38:06 Yeah.
01:38:07 Oh, how about Enis?
01:38:08 My transvestite nanny, very kind.
01:38:13 He, did you hear about this?
01:38:15 No.
01:38:16 We had this transvestite nanny who was like a drag queen,
01:38:19 but it was in the 90s.
01:38:20 So it was weird.
01:38:20 It was new.
01:38:21 And my bike got stolen and he, you know,
01:38:25 my parents were like, eh, what are you gonna do?
01:38:27 They’re poor kids, you know?
01:38:28 And he was like, fuck it, we’re gonna go get that bike.
01:38:31 And I was like, this guy’s in a wig and high heels,
01:38:33 big black guy.
01:38:35 And I’m like, ah, what are you gonna do?
01:38:38 You know, it’s gone.
01:38:39 And he’s like, nah, we’re gonna go get it.
01:38:40 So we got in the van and drove around my neighborhood,
01:38:44 saw the kids, fuck with the bike, you know,
01:38:46 five street tufts.
01:38:48 And he goes, all right, you want to come out
01:38:51 or should I just do this?
01:38:52 And I was like, you do it.
01:38:53 I’m terrified.
01:38:53 What are you, crazy?
01:38:55 And he got out of the van in full, you know,
01:38:58 heels and wig.
01:38:59 And he went up to these guys and they went off.
01:39:01 Oh my God, look at this fucking guy,
01:39:03 homo faggot, all this shit.
01:39:05 You know, it’s the 90s.
01:39:06 And he just stared at them long enough
01:39:09 to where they were kind of like, all right,
01:39:10 well, I guess we’re gonna fight you now.
01:39:12 And he goes, that’s not your bike.
01:39:14 And they go, what are you gonna do about it?
01:39:16 And he puts his hand on the middle of the bike
01:39:18 and they didn’t do anything.
01:39:19 And he just picked it up and said, that’s what I thought.
01:39:22 Put the bike over his shoulder, slid the van door open,
01:39:25 threw the bike in and we drove off.
01:39:28 Somebody stuck up for you.
01:39:29 Yeah, and you know, I mean, he could have got,
01:39:31 I mean, they had tools.
01:39:33 They could have fucking tuned him up, two seconds.
01:39:36 That actually like takes courage.
01:39:39 Oh yeah, real courage.
01:39:41 And then that, the reason you do an act like that
01:39:45 is that makes a kid like you feel like
01:39:48 there’s somebody on your side, that’s powerful.
01:39:51 Someone on your side is big.
01:39:52 Is big.
01:39:53 That goes a long way.
01:39:56 Especially when they have the risk
01:39:57 of getting their ass kicked or their job taken away
01:40:00 or whatever it is.
01:40:01 Now we’re gonna get philosophical,
01:40:05 maybe a little bit emotional.
01:40:07 Oh, would you rather lose all your old memories
01:40:12 or never be able to make new ones?
01:40:18 It’s a tough one, but I’d go easy answer, make new ones.
01:40:22 But don’t you think all the shitty things
01:40:24 that happen to you?
01:40:25 Oh, so my hard drive is wiped clean.
01:40:27 It’s not, is it memories
01:40:30 or is it how every memory affected me too?
01:40:34 I mean, this is a very.
01:40:35 Or do they go hand in hand?
01:40:36 I think the reality about memories
01:40:39 is you replay them often.
01:40:40 You go back to them even when you’re not aware of it.
01:40:43 You really go, you go back often like that.
01:40:46 And they change.
01:40:47 You change them too.
01:40:48 Yeah, you change them to suit your understanding
01:40:51 of the world.
01:40:52 Yes.
01:40:53 And so the dark view you have,
01:40:57 both the hope and the cynicism you have about the world
01:40:59 is so deeply grounded in the memories
01:41:04 that you’re basically, I would say,
01:41:05 if you erase all memories,
01:41:08 I think you’re really starting over
01:41:11 with maybe the wisdom of how the world works,
01:41:14 but not so much of your personality is gone.
01:41:18 You would really,
01:41:21 it’d be interesting how your comedy would change.
01:41:23 Maybe you would have a good sense of timing.
01:41:25 You have a good sense of the writing process maybe.
01:41:31 But like.
01:41:33 Now you’re making some good points,
01:41:34 but let me ask you this.
01:41:35 Let’s say I go to Lake Cuomo with my girlfriend.
01:41:39 Now, like I wipe the memory or I keep my old memories.
01:41:43 Let’s say I go to the Tuscany with the lady.
01:41:46 I just won’t remember that?
01:41:48 Yeah, but you get to experience it in the moment.
01:41:50 Okay.
01:41:50 You’ll get to enjoy it.
01:41:51 Can I look at a photo of it?
01:41:55 Yes.
01:41:55 But I would, what the hell is this?
01:41:56 Yeah, exactly.
01:41:57 Oh, fascinating.
01:41:59 It’s exact.
01:42:00 The rules are pretty simple.
01:42:01 Yeah.
01:42:02 I think everyone knows how the rules go.
01:42:04 So you would, yeah, so what?
01:42:06 Well, I was gonna say start new ones,
01:42:08 but then I realized I wouldn’t be who I was without them.
01:42:11 That’s what you’re saying.
01:42:12 So I guess I’d keep them.
01:42:14 Cause I am 38, so I’ve gotten a good chunk out of life.
01:42:17 Yeah.
01:42:18 And let’s be honest, how many years do you have left?
01:42:20 I know, right?
01:42:21 I got AIDS.
01:42:23 Is it better to have loved,
01:42:25 okay, this question is ridiculous.
01:42:26 Is it better to have loved than lost
01:42:29 or to have never loved at all?
01:42:31 It sounds cliche, but there’s a question.
01:42:34 Definitely better to loss.
01:42:36 So you enjoy the ups and downs.
01:42:38 Yeah, that’s life.
01:42:40 We’re sun and rain, baby.
01:42:44 I kind of like both, the whole thing.
01:42:45 The loss, every time you lose something,
01:42:49 it really makes you distinctly realize
01:42:52 how much you valued it.
01:42:54 Yes.
01:42:55 Like when I’m feeling alone and I’m sitting there alone
01:43:02 at home and I wish I could hang out with somebody,
01:43:06 that’s like a realization how awesome people are.
01:43:10 Yeah.
01:43:11 So it’s like the missing, yeah.
01:43:15 We don’t have a lot of that in life anymore
01:43:17 because we can have anything we want immediately.
01:43:19 So the missing has gone away,
01:43:20 which again drives down the joy of having it.
01:43:25 So I think you’re right, you need both.
01:43:29 So like you said, you have a terminal condition,
01:43:32 not many years left.
01:43:34 Do you think about your mortality?
01:43:35 You think about that?
01:43:37 All day, every day.
01:43:38 Are you afraid?
01:43:40 Not afraid, because it’s inevitable.
01:43:42 So it’s more like, how are we gonna handle this?
01:43:46 It’s like the winter is coming,
01:43:47 let’s stock up on some fucking nuts.
01:43:50 But the existential nature of it,
01:43:51 like the fact that this ride ends,
01:43:53 like what the hell are you doing any of this for?
01:43:55 Like, is it your?
01:43:56 Satisfaction, happiness.
01:43:58 Short term, but like there is a presumption there
01:44:02 that it kind of goes on forever.
01:44:04 I think if you truly think about the fact that it ends.
01:44:08 Your brain almost shuts it down.
01:44:10 Yeah, there’s some kind of like protective like switch
01:44:14 that just goes off.
01:44:15 I mean, that’s why the Stoics encourage people
01:44:19 to meditate on death,
01:44:20 because it somehow reorganizes your priorities.
01:44:24 It helps you like, holy shit,
01:44:26 this ends, make the most of the day.
01:44:28 It’s just a nice thing,
01:44:29 but still you can’t quite comprehend that the thing ends.
01:44:34 Little things too.
01:44:35 People go like, oh, we got a layover between our flights.
01:44:38 It’s an hour, what are we gonna do for an hour?
01:44:40 It’s like, what do you mean,
01:44:41 what are you gonna do for an hour?
01:44:42 You’re gonna kill an hour.
01:44:44 How are we gonna kill this hour?
01:44:46 This is part of your life.
01:44:47 You’re just trying to get rid of it,
01:44:48 you’re just trying to kill it.
01:44:49 That always blew my mind.
01:44:50 Like, hey, fuck it, let’s go hit the airport bar.
01:44:52 Let’s get a candy bar or something, anything with bar.
01:44:57 But it’s just, you’ve gotta live.
01:45:00 I hate this like, how are we gonna burn?
01:45:01 Oh, the bar didn’t open for 15 minutes.
01:45:04 What are we gonna do?
01:45:05 Well, we got 15 minutes.
01:45:06 The world is our oyster.
01:45:07 Yeah, make the most of it.
01:45:09 And like you said, in modern day,
01:45:11 actually the boredom is a gift.
01:45:13 Like when you’re waiting for something, that’s a gift.
01:45:18 You get to be with your thoughts.
01:45:20 Yeah.
01:45:21 Those are the same thoughts you’ll have
01:45:22 when you’re on your deathbed.
01:45:24 There won’t be a, you won’t be scrolling TikTok
01:45:28 on your deathbed.
01:45:29 I hope not, Jesus.
01:45:30 You’d be a lot more, actually maybe you would be.
01:45:33 What a sad existence.
01:45:34 Because it would be a good,
01:45:35 like content creators would be like,
01:45:37 ooh, I’m dying, this would be good content.
01:45:39 Yeah, I wanna be able to sure,
01:45:42 film the exact moment it goes, beep.
01:45:44 Like last words, I wonder what my last words will be.
01:45:47 It’d be a good way to like end the account with a bang.
01:45:50 Yep, I like that.
01:45:52 Well, you know that you ever seen that meme
01:45:53 where the old guy in bed, he goes,
01:45:54 I wish I had tweeted more, you know, and then he dies.
01:45:58 It’s so true.
01:45:59 Could be the future.
01:46:00 What do you think is the meaning of life?
01:46:04 I don’t think there is one.
01:46:06 Everybody always throws that out there.
01:46:07 There isn’t a meaning.
01:46:08 I think we’re here, we’re lucky to be here.
01:46:11 I think there’s no afterlife, there’s no heaven.
01:46:13 That’s all shit we tell ourselves to feel better.
01:46:16 And I think you gotta just, it’s like saying,
01:46:18 what is the meaning of this food I made?
01:46:23 Well, it’s just you enjoy the food,
01:46:25 you try to get the most out of it.
01:46:26 You built the food, you prepared it.
01:46:30 So just get what you can out of it.
01:46:33 Don’t die and try to make it last as long as possible.
01:46:38 Yeah, but you look at Earth,
01:46:39 it’s like 4 billion years old.
01:46:42 And life started early on, like simple cell bacteria life,
01:46:47 like 1 billion years in.
01:46:49 And then it started like having lots
01:46:51 of aggressive interaction.
01:46:54 Eventually there’s predator and prey and there’s sex,
01:46:57 lots of sex, lots of sex, lots of violence.
01:47:00 Oh yeah.
01:47:01 And then, you know, through natural selection,
01:47:03 there’s just the whole evolutionary process of animals
01:47:07 that have loved and lost and murdered and gotten murdered
01:47:11 and all that kind of stuff.
01:47:12 And it’s somehow led to human civilization.
01:47:14 We’re super busy trying to create things
01:47:17 and creating beautiful art, creating beautiful comedy.
01:47:21 Just always creating something new.
01:47:23 It feels like it’s tending towards something, like.
01:47:26 It’s not dying.
01:47:28 If you die tomorrow, you still have all these hours of pods.
01:47:31 So it’s kind of, you think you’re cheating death
01:47:33 in a subconscious way, I think.
01:47:35 Right, you know who Ernest Becker is and?
01:47:38 I’ve heard the name.
01:47:39 It’s a book called Denial of Death,
01:47:42 this idea that if you don’t acknowledge.
01:47:46 Books on my shelf.
01:47:48 Girls love it.
01:47:49 Like Dostoevsky.
01:47:51 No, I’m just, I’m saying.
01:47:53 You want to bring Tolstoy, Dostoevsky?
01:47:54 Russian literature, it’s back to norm.
01:47:57 It’s good to bring to,
01:47:58 because no American has read any Russian literature,
01:48:02 but they all appreciate it if you bring it.
01:48:04 And it’s not like they’re going to ask you
01:48:05 any legitimate questions because they haven’t read it.
01:48:08 So you can always pretend like you’ve read it, so.
01:48:10 It’s a little dense.
01:48:12 Can we get a shortened version?
01:48:14 Cliff notes.
01:48:15 Yes, or make a movie with, you know, Ben Stiller
01:48:18 that I can just go, oh, this is based on,
01:48:21 what is it, life and death?
01:48:23 No, what’s the one?
01:48:24 War and peace.
01:48:24 War and peace, yeah.
01:48:26 Yeah, so Ernest Becker’s theory,
01:48:28 and there’s this whole terror management theory
01:48:31 that basically says that like our terror of death,
01:48:34 our fear of death is one of the central creative forces
01:48:39 of the human condition.
01:48:40 It’s the reason we’re trying to, yeah, cheat death.
01:48:43 We’re trying to dilute ourself
01:48:44 that somehow we can become immortal through our art.
01:48:47 That’s why you’ve uploaded your special to YouTube
01:48:49 because you think your special
01:48:52 will outlive all of human civilization.
01:48:54 You think YouTube will outlive all of human civilization.
01:48:57 That could go away tomorrow.
01:48:58 That can go away tomorrow.
01:49:00 All of this can go away.
01:49:01 So I’m truly grateful.
01:49:04 Mr. Mark Norman, that you would spend
01:49:06 your very valuable time with me today
01:49:09 even though it could all go away.
01:49:10 This could be the last day of our lives,
01:49:12 and won’t you be quite upset that this is how you spent it?
01:49:16 Ah, yeah, in your hotel room, what am I?
01:49:18 You’re like Harvey Weinstein here.
01:49:20 You poured me up, and now I feel fucked.
01:49:23 Just wait, what we have ready for you
01:49:26 after the podcast is over.
01:49:28 All right, brother, thanks so much for talking today.
01:49:29 Thank you, it was great.
01:49:31 Comedy.
01:49:32 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Mark Norman.
01:49:36 To support this podcast,
01:49:37 please check out our sponsors in the description.
01:49:39 And now let me leave you with some words
01:49:41 from Mark Norman himself on his Twitter,
01:49:44 which you should definitely follow because it’s hilarious.
01:49:47 The worst thing about getting Omicron for Christmas
01:49:51 is you know it was regifted.
01:49:53 Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.