Transcript
00:00:00 The following is a conversation with Albert Berla, CEO of Pfizer.
00:00:04 If you’d like to skip ahead to our conversation, the timestamps as always are below.
00:00:09 But if not, please allow me to say a few words about truth and human nature.
00:00:15 Specifically, about two groups of people throughout history that seek to lay claim to the truth.
00:00:21 The first group will tell you that only they possess the truth,
00:00:25 and that the government will save you, the company will save you, the science, the authorities, the experts, the institutions will save you.
00:00:32 The second group, too, will tell you that only they possess the truth,
00:00:37 and that the government will hurt you, the company will hurt you, the science, the authorities, the experts, the institutions will hurt you.
00:00:44 Both groups have the benevolent and the malevolent, their heroes and their charlatans.
00:00:50 And I think the hard truth is that no one in this world can tell you with absolute certainty which is which.
00:00:57 You have to use your mind.
00:00:59 This is the burden of being human, of being free.
00:01:03 Don’t blindly follow any leader, neither the emperor nor the martyr who points out that the emperor has no clothes.
00:01:11 And then there’s the lessons of history.
00:01:14 Vaccines have saved hundreds of millions of lives in the past century,
00:01:19 and in general, the advance of medicine has saved billions of lives.
00:01:23 If you ignore the power of science, you’re not being honest with the lessons of history.
00:01:28 And if you ignore the corrupting nature of power and money within institutions,
00:01:33 including governments and companies that led to the suffering and death of hundreds of millions in the past century,
00:01:39 you are once again not being honest with the lessons of history.
00:01:45 I announced that I will be having this conversation with Albert Burla, Pfizer CEO, and a lot of people wrote to me.
00:01:52 I would like to say that I was and am and always will be listening and learning with an open mind from everyone.
00:01:59 My own opinion, worth little as it is, is that the development of the COVID vaccines is one of the greatest accomplishments of science in recent history.
00:02:08 For the rest, from safety and efficacy to policy and economics,
00:02:13 I stand humbled before a complicated world full of fear and anger.
00:02:18 A small number of malicious people from all walks of life will use that fear and anger to divide us,
00:02:24 because the division makes them money and gives them power.
00:02:29 I took two shots of the Pfizer vaccine.
00:02:31 This was my decision.
00:02:32 I don’t ever want to force this on anyone, and I certainly don’t want to dismiss your concerns or worse,
00:02:39 you as a person if you choose not to get vaccinated.
00:02:43 I can assure you one thing, in this conversation, and in any conversation,
00:02:47 the choice of questions I ask and words I say is mine and mine alone.
00:02:52 When my words fall short, as they often do, it is only because of the limitations of my mind and of my speaking ability.
00:03:00 It is not due to pressure or fear.
00:03:03 I’m not afraid of anyone.
00:03:05 I cannot be bought by anyone with money, power, or fame.
00:03:09 I hope to prove this to you and to myself in the coming years.
00:03:13 This life is short, and to me, without integrity, it is not worth living.
00:03:19 People sometimes talk down to me, call me naive.
00:03:22 Perhaps they are right, but it is who I am.
00:03:26 I think this life, this world, this, our human civilization is beautiful.
00:03:32 And as Dostoevsky said, beauty will save the world.
00:03:37 This is the Lex Friedman Podcast, and here’s my conversation with Albert Borla.
00:03:43 The development of the COVID 19 vaccine was one of the greatest accomplishments of science in recent history.
00:03:50 No matter what, this should give people hope for the future.
00:03:54 And yet, it is more of a source of division.
00:03:57 I hope we can discuss both the inspiring and the difficult ideas in this conversation
00:04:02 so that we can do our small part in healing this division.
00:04:06 I hope so.
00:04:07 Take me through the day of November 8th, 2020,
00:04:10 when the Pfizer team were waiting for the results of the phase three clinical trials.
00:04:14 We had assembled in a very small office that we are having in Connecticut, very few people.
00:04:20 There were five, I think.
00:04:22 And in another place, what we call the Data Monitoring Committee,
00:04:28 which is a group of experts, independent experts, they’re on Pfizer,
00:04:32 we’re going to have the opportunity to unblind the data
00:04:36 and then tell us if the study needs to continue or if it is successful or if it fails.
00:04:44 And we were waiting for their call.
00:04:45 So the call came a little bit later than what we expected,
00:04:49 which created a lot of anxiety to all of us, but came around, I think, two o clock.
00:04:55 You’re just sitting there waiting? What were you feeling?
00:04:57 Sitting there waiting and teasing one another, drinking coffee, making jokes.
00:05:04 So how did you feel like when you heard the results, the successful results?
00:05:11 Free, liberated, happy.
00:05:16 Like if a huge weight that was on my shoulders was lifted.
00:05:23 I heard you said, I love you to the team.
00:05:27 I did. This is how we speak in Mediterranean.
00:05:33 Listen, maybe it’s the Russian thing too.
00:05:35 I love love, so I appreciate that kind of celebration.
00:05:41 So looking back from that moment to before,
00:05:43 how much did it cost to develop the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine?
00:05:48 What was it like making the decision to make that investment
00:05:51 when the risk is very high and you don’t know if it’s going to be successful?
00:05:56 You know, we do a lot of that anyway.
00:05:58 This is what we do in our daily work.
00:06:00 We are putting money.
00:06:02 We are investing in research, which is highly risky.
00:06:05 The difference in that case was that we didn’t risk at all.
00:06:09 We put it all in.
00:06:10 We put everything in one go so that we don’t lose time.
00:06:15 Usually, we will spend 50 millions.
00:06:17 And then if that goes well, then we will spend another 50.
00:06:20 And then if it goes well, then 100.
00:06:22 Here, we put all together a little bit more than $2 billion, $2.3 billion.
00:06:28 And it was a significant decision.
00:06:33 But it was a very easy decision to make in the context of what
00:06:38 we were living at that time.
00:06:39 It was a pandemic.
00:06:41 People were scared.
00:06:42 We were scared.
00:06:42 We didn’t know how tomorrow would look like.
00:06:46 We were living unprecedented situations.
00:06:49 And we knew that we have capabilities that may help.
00:06:54 So there was not a second question or choice.
00:06:57 We go all in.
00:06:59 When you make decisions like that, you’re
00:07:02 the CEO of a company that needs to make money
00:07:08 and that hopes to do a lot of good in the world.
00:07:12 How much of both of those things are part of the calculation?
00:07:17 So when you said it was an obvious choice,
00:07:21 I think you’ve said a bunch of things of the kind of saying
00:07:25 we need to go all in, sort of very boldly diving in.
00:07:31 How much was that the world is facing uncertainty and fear
00:07:37 and potentially destructive pandemic in the early days,
00:07:40 just when you’re seeing the full uncertainty before us,
00:07:43 don’t know how it’s going to unroll?
00:07:45 And how much of it is this may also
00:07:48 be a good financial decision to take this risk?
00:07:51 Yeah, I think about it all the time.
00:07:53 And I know very well that if you focus too much on making money,
00:07:56 you will never make.
00:07:58 You should focus in what is the real value driver.
00:08:02 And the real value driver, it is to make breakthroughs
00:08:07 that change patients lives.
00:08:08 If you don’t do that, you will never make money.
00:08:11 If you do that, don’t worry.
00:08:13 Things will fall into place, and also money will follow.
00:08:16 But the mentality of the company is
00:08:18 to be how to help the patient.
00:08:19 And that’s what the management was that the shareholders want,
00:08:23 because that’s the only way that we can create value.
00:08:26 In this particular case, we’re not
00:08:28 thinking at all about what are we
00:08:31 going to make when we sell it or if we don’t sell it.
00:08:34 Because what we were focusing 100%
00:08:37 was how to bring a solution to the world that
00:08:40 will help all of us change the fear that
00:08:44 was bringing hope to the world.
00:08:46 And as always, when you do that, you
00:08:49 will have good returns as well.
00:08:53 On a philosophical level, on a human level,
00:08:55 do you ever worry that the pressure
00:08:58 to cover the costs that were invested,
00:09:01 to develop a new drug, to develop this vaccine,
00:09:05 harms your ability to conduct unbiased studies?
00:09:08 Not at all, because the studies are highly regulated.
00:09:12 Everybody knows what regulators, and when
00:09:15 I say regulators, FDA, European authorities, UK authorities,
00:09:20 Israeli authorities, Japanese authorities, Canadian
00:09:22 authorities, want to see how the study needs to be conducted
00:09:27 and what exactly they need to see to approve it or not.
00:09:30 So clearly, everybody takes into consideration
00:09:34 how much money I’m going to invest
00:09:35 and what is the chances that I’m going to lose them.
00:09:38 But what you can do is to change the rules of the game
00:09:42 so that you won’t lose the money.
00:09:44 There are very well established methodologies
00:09:47 that would say with very high precision
00:09:50 if your medicine is effective, if your medicine is safe.
00:09:54 And those are there for all and are
00:09:57 playing with the same rules.
00:09:59 Do you have an intuition about why
00:10:02 is the FDA trying to get 75 years to release the Pfizer
00:10:07 data?
00:10:08 They’re trying to request that it will not
00:10:10 be released for 75 years.
00:10:12 And then maybe the broader version of that question
00:10:16 is do you think people should have
00:10:18 sort of full transparency and immediate access to the data,
00:10:22 immediate on the scale of weeks, not years?
00:10:27 I think the relations with regulators,
00:10:30 they have been always very transparent.
00:10:32 And there are a lot of laws that they
00:10:35 are forcing regulators and companies
00:10:40 to put out their interactions and what exactly was discussed.
00:10:44 Now, to go into specific details of some discussions,
00:10:50 I don’t know what is the reason that FDA
00:10:52 wants to take the time.
00:10:53 And I’m sure they have very good reasons.
00:10:56 Well, let me just say my side of it.
00:10:59 It doesn’t look like a good reason.
00:11:01 It looks like maybe it’s because I come from the Soviet Union.
00:11:04 Now, this is not you saying this.
00:11:06 This is me saying this.
00:11:10 There seems to be a bureaucracy that
00:11:11 gets in the way of transparency.
00:11:13 That’s always the challenge with government.
00:11:15 So government is very good at setting rules and making
00:11:17 sure there’s oversight of companies and people and so on.
00:11:21 But they create, they slow things down,
00:11:24 which is a feature and a bug.
00:11:26 And in this case, they slow down so much.
00:11:29 I think the reason they set it at 75 years
00:11:31 is because they set a rate of being
00:11:34 able to only review 500 pages of data a day
00:11:37 or something like that.
00:11:38 And that’s a very kind of bureaucratic thing,
00:11:41 where in reality, you could just show the data.
00:11:44 And it’s not like something is being hidden.
00:11:47 But in the battle to win people’s trust,
00:11:50 to inspire them with science, it feels
00:11:52 like transparency is one of the most beautiful things, one
00:11:55 of the most powerful things that the FDA has.
00:11:57 FDA has the potential to be one of the great institutions
00:12:01 of our country.
00:12:02 And this is one example that it feels, to me, like a failure.
00:12:06 So in your perspective, you’re saying,
00:12:08 I’m sure they have a good reason.
00:12:10 So to you, the FDA is this black box
00:12:13 that you submit things to once they approve.
00:12:17 You know that those are the rules.
00:12:20 It’s approved.
00:12:21 That’s it.
00:12:21 But this is not a black box.
00:12:24 We know very well what is the process.
00:12:28 Everybody knows very well what are the processes.
00:12:30 The review process also, it is very detailed.
00:12:35 They have scientists of very, very high caliber.
00:12:38 Not every regulator in the world,
00:12:40 but the Europeans, the BRIDs, the FDA clearly,
00:12:45 they have very, very high caliber of scientists
00:12:47 that they are going into a lot of details.
00:12:50 And also, basically everything for a study
00:12:55 is really released by law in the specifications
00:13:00 of the product, but it’s a very detailed document
00:13:02 that it is issued and has basically the essence
00:13:05 of everything that was discussed.
00:13:06 I don’t know about specific documents
00:13:10 if take them time to release,
00:13:12 but clearly this is not a black box type of process.
00:13:15 A lot of this stuff is how do you effectively communicate
00:13:19 to the world about the incredible science that’s been done,
00:13:22 about the processes that were followed.
00:13:24 I agree with you.
00:13:25 And then sometimes it’s just in eloquence in communication.
00:13:29 It’s not that there’s a failure process.
00:13:31 It’s in eloquence of communication and silence.
00:13:34 Silence in the moment when clearly a lot of people
00:13:37 are bothered and have questions.
00:13:40 This is when you speak out and you explain exactly why
00:13:44 as opposed to letting the sort of distrust build up
00:13:48 and linger because the result is there’s a very large
00:13:51 percentage of the population that just,
00:13:56 I mean, it divides people and science suffers, I think.
00:14:01 And also the effectiveness of solutions suffers
00:14:04 like the vaccine and so on.
00:14:08 I asked a few folks I know
00:14:10 if they had challenging questions for you.
00:14:12 I’m sure many of them answered your call.
00:14:17 Yeah, many friendly folks out there.
00:14:21 By the way, I’m sweating not because this is a difficult
00:14:24 conversation, it is, but it’s also hot in here
00:14:27 for the record.
00:14:29 So one of the folks is Mr. Jordan Peterson.
00:14:33 I don’t know if you know who that is.
00:14:35 He’s a psychologist and intellectual and author.
00:14:38 He suggested to me that I raised the concern
00:14:40 that there’s a close working relationship
00:14:42 between Pfizer, FDA, and CDC.
00:14:45 So we talked about FDA.
00:14:48 Do you worry that this affects both positive and negative
00:14:53 Pfizer’s chances of getting drugs approved?
00:14:56 The fact that there’s people that worked at the FDA
00:14:59 that now work at Pfizer, Pfizer, FDA,
00:15:01 that there’s a kind of pipeline.
00:15:04 Does this worry you that it affects your ability
00:15:08 to do great, unbiased work?
00:15:11 I have zero doubts that this is not affecting at all
00:15:16 their ability to be unbiased and regulate.
00:15:21 And in order to, for the system also reinforces that
00:15:24 by creating significant time barriers.
00:15:27 If someone moves from an industry to FDA,
00:15:30 she won’t be able to deal with topics for a period of time.
00:15:34 And then for even an enhanced period of time
00:15:36 with topics that are related with a company
00:15:38 he or she may come from.
00:15:40 I think these regulators, they are really very strict.
00:15:46 Rightly so.
00:15:48 If anything, I feel sometimes that maybe they should
00:15:52 be a little bit more open minded,
00:15:55 particularly when it comes to new technologies,
00:15:57 rather than trying to judge and implement the same
00:16:00 framework of variation of new technologies to all.
00:16:03 They are always as regulators in the conservative side.
00:16:07 But always, always, they are unbiased
00:16:11 and they are trying the best.
00:16:13 And it’s not only one or two people.
00:16:15 They have processes to make sure that there are self checks
00:16:19 and balances within the agencies,
00:16:21 both in CDC and in the FDA.
00:16:23 Difficult decisions, they bring external experts
00:16:26 that they should express.
00:16:27 Easy decisions, they are internal experts
00:16:30 that they are debating a lot.
00:16:31 And if there are disagreements, they elevate them.
00:16:33 So I think we are lucky to have good regulators.
00:16:39 I think I agree with what you said before,
00:16:42 as with all governmental agencies, there is bureaucracy.
00:16:46 And the bureaucracy needs to be addressed.
00:16:49 And by saying bureaucracy is not relaxing the bar.
00:16:54 The bar needs to remain high.
00:16:56 But focusing on what matters rather than on the detail.
00:17:04 So you don’t, I’ve been reading quite a bit about history.
00:17:08 You don’t worry about human nature and corruption
00:17:12 that can seep in.
00:17:13 You’re saying institutionally,
00:17:15 there’s protections against this.
00:17:16 I think there is always the fear of corruption,
00:17:21 particularly when you speak about public servants.
00:17:24 But clearly the risk is very different country by country.
00:17:28 And speaking about agencies by agencies,
00:17:31 I think the regulatory agencies
00:17:34 have a very good track record in history
00:17:37 of the US, of Europe, of England,
00:17:40 of very, very good track record of integrity.
00:17:44 It’s something I think about.
00:17:46 So I grew up in the Soviet Union
00:17:47 and I need to perhaps introspect this a little bit.
00:17:52 But when I was growing up, ethically,
00:17:56 there was a sense that bribery
00:17:59 is the only way you can get stuff done.
00:18:01 That was the system of the time.
00:18:04 Like you get pulled over by a police officer.
00:18:06 Like obviously you need to bribe them.
00:18:09 I mean, it was like the way of life.
00:18:11 And then so coming to this country was beautiful
00:18:14 to see that the rule of law has so much power.
00:18:16 And ultimately the rule of law when enacted,
00:18:21 when it holds up, it gives people freedom
00:18:26 to do the best work of their lives.
00:18:28 But there’s still human nature.
00:18:30 And that worries me a lot here.
00:18:32 And again, it goes back to the perception,
00:18:34 the communication, when there’s people
00:18:36 that have worked at Pfizer and an FDA, at the CDC,
00:18:41 you look at their resume,
00:18:42 they have those things on their resume, it worries people.
00:18:46 Are these great leaders that we are supposed
00:18:50 to see as authorities, are they playing a game on us?
00:18:54 I would say that I recognize what you said
00:18:58 about what happened in, or what,
00:19:00 I’m sure that what you described
00:19:02 in the country that you’re coming from,
00:19:05 it was how you experienced it.
00:19:07 And I know that there are other countries
00:19:09 that you need to do these things to do your job.
00:19:13 I don’t think it’s the case in this country,
00:19:17 particularly when it comes to those agencies
00:19:19 that you mentioned.
00:19:20 I think they have a very high track record.
00:19:23 And also, I don’t think that there are a lot of people
00:19:26 that they are worried about it or doubt it.
00:19:29 I’m sure, like everywhere, there will be a minority,
00:19:31 but the vast majority of the Americans,
00:19:34 the vast majority of the Europeans,
00:19:35 the vast majority of the Brits,
00:19:37 the vast majority of the Israelis,
00:19:39 they trust what FDA or EMA or CDC or MHRA will say.
00:19:44 MHRA will say.
00:19:48 Still, there’s currently a distrust
00:19:50 of big pharma in the public.
00:19:51 Maybe this is something I’d love to hear your comment on.
00:19:55 There’s distrust of science when it’s tangled up
00:19:57 with corporations and government institutions,
00:20:00 like we’ve talked about.
00:20:02 But they have to be entangled to achieve scale,
00:20:07 oversight, and to achieve the kind of scale
00:20:09 that Pfizer’s been able to accomplish.
00:20:11 So, how can Pfizer regain the public trust?
00:20:16 How can you regain the public trust, do you think?
00:20:19 Not regain, but sort of take steps
00:20:21 to increase the public trust.
00:20:24 Reputation is something that you can lose in buckets,
00:20:29 but you can earn it back in drops.
00:20:32 And once you’ve lost it,
00:20:36 you are going to take a lot of effort to bring it back.
00:20:40 And the pharmaceutical industry lost it.
00:20:42 It’s clear that the reputation of the industry
00:20:45 in the last decade was on the lowest
00:20:50 that we have seen ever.
00:20:52 And there are many reasons for that,
00:20:56 but clearly there are reasons that are related also
00:20:59 with the behavior of the industry.
00:21:01 That needed to change, and I’m hopeful
00:21:04 that very few will disagree
00:21:08 that the industry is a very different industry right now.
00:21:12 That being said, I truly believe
00:21:16 that if there is one lesson that stands out
00:21:20 from the many lessons that we learned during COVID,
00:21:23 is the power of science in the hands of the private sector.
00:21:29 I think it was the private sector
00:21:32 that came with solutions with diagnostic tests
00:21:36 when we didn’t have, solutions with respirators
00:21:39 when we didn’t have, solutions with treatments,
00:21:43 solutions with vaccines.
00:21:45 And I think that demonstrated very clearly to the world
00:21:50 the value of thriving life sciences sector,
00:21:56 private life sciences sector to society.
00:22:00 That also affected very positively the reputation,
00:22:04 both of the sector and of Pfizer.
00:22:08 I’m not going to make the mistake to consider given.
00:22:11 I’m not going to make the mistake
00:22:13 that because our reputation is high, that will remain so.
00:22:17 We need to earn it every day.
00:22:19 Every day with everything we do,
00:22:22 with everything we say, with the way we behave.
00:22:25 And I hope that we’ll rise to this occasion
00:22:28 and we will do that.
00:22:30 You’ve been at Pfizer for 28 years.
00:22:32 Time flies when you’re having fun.
00:22:33 And you’ve become CEO in 2019.
00:22:37 It is a company you love, a company you believe in.
00:22:41 It’s a company that has developed drugs
00:22:43 that has helped millions of people.
00:22:46 So let me ask yet another hard question
00:22:50 on this topic of reputation.
00:22:51 In 2009, Pfizer pleaded guilty
00:22:54 to the illegal marketing of arthritis drug Bextra
00:22:57 and agreed to a $2.3 billion settlement.
00:23:01 How do you make sense of the fact that this happened
00:23:04 to a company you love and that you believe in?
00:23:07 Yes, the Bextra case in 2009
00:23:12 was related to things that happened in 2003.
00:23:16 And the things that happened in 2003
00:23:17 were things that basically several of our reps
00:23:21 did off label promotion.
00:23:24 So they spoke with the physicians
00:23:27 about off label use of the product, and they shouldn’t.
00:23:31 Can you clarify it?
00:23:32 So off label are things that the FDA didn’t approve,
00:23:35 extra stuff.
00:23:37 You basically say this drug does extra stuff
00:23:39 that the FDA never approved.
00:23:40 Correct, and this is something that it is allowed
00:23:43 when physicians are speaking to physicians,
00:23:45 but it is not allowed for the pharmaceutical companies
00:23:48 to refer to these studies,
00:23:50 because usually our studies that are happening off label.
00:23:53 And apparently several of our reps in 2003, they did it.
00:23:57 And we had to settle in 2009,
00:24:02 and we paid a very big fine, as you said.
00:24:05 The fine was related not to the severity of the conduct,
00:24:08 but the size of the revenues.
00:24:10 So the fines are, if Bextra was a small product,
00:24:13 we would get a small fine.
00:24:14 Bextra was a very big product,
00:24:15 and we got a very large fine.
00:24:17 Very bad, what happened in 2003.
00:24:21 I don’t think that these things happened since then.
00:24:26 We have a stellar record from 2009 until now
00:24:29 of complying with every single regulation and rule.
00:24:34 We have internal processes to make sure
00:24:37 that these are not happening by individuals
00:24:39 that may have an interest.
00:24:41 For example, to get a promotion,
00:24:43 they may try and do things
00:24:45 that are not the right things.
00:24:47 And we have, more importantly, a culture in this company
00:24:52 that really sets aside people that they think differently.
00:24:56 So I didn’t like what happened in 2003,
00:25:01 but I believe a lot has changed
00:25:03 in the 20 years that followed, or almost 20 years.
00:25:07 So you’re developing drugs,
00:25:09 you’re developing solutions to help millions of people,
00:25:12 but there’s risk involved.
00:25:14 And so there will be lawsuits heading back your way
00:25:18 because there’s a lot of lawyers in the world, partially.
00:25:27 How do you put that into the calculation
00:25:29 of how you try to do good in the world?
00:25:35 That some of the cost is the lawsuits.
00:25:38 How do you not fall victim to thinking
00:25:41 that it’s just the cost of doing business,
00:25:44 and that some of the lawsuits might actually represent
00:25:46 real pain that people are going through?
00:25:49 No, I think that we try always to do the right thing.
00:25:52 And that’s, as I said, very well embedded into our culture.
00:25:56 If you don’t do the right thing,
00:25:59 sooner or later, you will pay for it, one way or another.
00:26:03 And right now, for us doing the right thing,
00:26:05 it is being able to find innovations to issues
00:26:09 that are real, diseases that they do not have
00:26:14 good coverage, good treatments right now.
00:26:17 We try to find treatments that significantly
00:26:21 surpass the current standards of care.
00:26:26 And we try not only to comply with what regulators
00:26:29 are asking us to do, this is what you need to do
00:26:31 to prove the safety or the efficacy, but exceed them.
00:26:34 No matter what we do on that,
00:26:37 I’m sure that people will find opportunity
00:26:39 because, as you said, there are a lot of lawyers to sue us.
00:26:42 But we believe in the justice system
00:26:44 and we believe that eventually,
00:26:47 if you are doing the right thing,
00:26:49 you will be on the right side of the history.
00:26:53 I’m really glad you say that because
00:26:57 focusing on doing the right thing, no matter the money,
00:27:01 I believe is the best way to make money.
00:27:03 That’s exactly what I said.
00:27:04 And also, in another way, in other realms,
00:27:08 creating a product that people love
00:27:10 is the best way to make money.
00:27:11 So focusing on the core of the thing
00:27:15 that makes people feel good,
00:27:16 that brings value to people’s lives.
00:27:19 So I’m now in Austin, Texas.
00:27:23 My good friend, Joe Rogan, he’s been highlighting to me
00:27:27 this aggressive marketing on mainstream media channels
00:27:31 by Pfizer.
00:27:32 So let me ask a general marketing question.
00:27:35 Do you see this as a conflict of interest?
00:27:37 Is it my bias, the reporting of news?
00:27:40 That a lot of us, a lot of people, me included,
00:27:44 look to these mainstream channels of news
00:27:47 for kind of authority of like,
00:27:49 what the heck’s going on in the world?
00:27:51 And if Pfizer is sponsoring
00:27:56 many of these shows,
00:28:00 there’s a worry, it may be a perception thing,
00:28:03 but there’s also a natural worry
00:28:05 that it would influence what they’re talking about
00:28:07 because they’re afraid of losing the sponsorship.
00:28:09 It’s subtle, but at scale, it might have a serious impact.
00:28:12 Do you worry about this?
00:28:14 I think people could go one way or another
00:28:17 because of multiple reasons.
00:28:21 From our perspective,
00:28:24 I don’t think we have aggressive marketing.
00:28:28 What we do, we go on TV
00:28:31 and we are having ads about our products
00:28:35 and they’re highly regulated.
00:28:38 I think it is the right of people to know,
00:28:40 to learn that if there is a product like that.
00:28:43 It’s very clearly that we cannot say things
00:28:47 that they are off label, that have not been approved.
00:28:49 We need to have, every time we go on TV, as you know,
00:28:52 FDA is forcing us to say also the bad things
00:28:55 that can happen for a medicine.
00:28:57 Sometimes that takes more time than the good things.
00:29:01 And I don’t think that we are doing aggressive marketing.
00:29:04 Now, people could be influenced
00:29:08 and can be biased in the podcasts
00:29:10 or the other type of media activities that they have
00:29:14 for multiple different reasons.
00:29:17 Yeah, I know, but it’s still, it’s pressure.
00:29:19 It’s human nature.
00:29:20 I mean, one of it is perception, but I worry about too.
00:29:24 I think I have a ton of sponsors for this podcast,
00:29:26 for example, and none of them ever asked me to anything.
00:29:30 They’re just, you know,
00:29:31 I think likely that kind of pressure’s not happening
00:29:34 for Pfizer, but there’s implied pressure sometimes.
00:29:39 And I worry about that a lot because, you know,
00:29:43 I look at academia, like I look for the good in people.
00:29:48 I tend to believe most people are good
00:29:50 or have the capacity to be good and desire to be good.
00:29:54 When I came to MIT, I was a little bit disappointed,
00:30:01 maybe heartbroken.
00:30:05 How much pressure?
00:30:09 I think unjustified pressure people felt
00:30:12 from financial constraints, especially at MIT
00:30:16 when there’s, I think, a lot of money.
00:30:19 People still felt constraints and they weren’t,
00:30:22 it wasn’t bringing out the best in them.
00:30:24 They weren’t supporting each other.
00:30:25 They weren’t loving each other,
00:30:26 like celebrating each other’s successes.
00:30:30 I don’t want to blame money on everything,
00:30:32 money constraints, but when you have sponsors,
00:30:35 it just, I personally worry
00:30:38 that it doesn’t bring the best out of people.
00:30:41 And so I feel like I want to put some responsibility
00:30:44 on sponsors and great big companies like Pfizer
00:30:49 to kind of not get in the way of the best of human nature,
00:30:56 whether it’s sponsoring podcasts, mainstream media,
00:31:02 like, I don’t know, athletes, whatever.
00:31:05 You need to know that we are so, so careful
00:31:08 with sponsorships.
00:31:09 First of all, we have very few, very, very few.
00:31:12 We have a team that for every single one,
00:31:14 could be $2,000.
00:31:16 They will try to see if there is a conflict of interest
00:31:19 in the way we do it.
00:31:20 And also what is the reputation of the persons
00:31:25 or the programs that we are sponsoring?
00:31:27 So I don’t think, our friend, I think was from Texas.
00:31:32 Yes. Yeah.
00:31:33 I don’t. Joe Rogan, yes.
00:31:34 Yes.
00:31:35 I don’t think he got it right
00:31:37 that we do those type of things.
00:31:41 We don’t.
00:31:42 Oh, in terms of like having a negative effect on.
00:31:44 Not even having aggressive sponsorships.
00:31:46 We have very few.
00:31:48 Yeah, when you clip them all together.
00:31:49 And most of the sponsorships that we have,
00:31:51 it is more on patient related organizations
00:31:55 rather than we are very careful not to sponsor other things
00:31:58 that can be perceived, not even influenced,
00:32:02 but perceived that we may influence.
00:32:03 So we are very, very careful on that.
00:32:05 This is not the case with us.
00:32:07 So with the incredibly fast development of the vaccine,
00:32:13 could you tell me the story from the engineering
00:32:16 to the science, to the human story
00:32:19 of how you could do it so fast?
00:32:22 By November, you even had the ambition to do it by October.
00:32:26 It was in the initial days.
00:32:28 How do you. Eight days later.
00:32:31 In that time, how do you show
00:32:33 that the vaccine is safe and effective
00:32:36 given that I think previous vaccines
00:32:38 have taken years to do that?
00:32:40 Yeah, the vaccines take years to do that.
00:32:43 And the time that it takes, it is basically
00:32:48 the vast majority of the time to conduct
00:32:50 the final phase three study,
00:32:53 that is the confirmatory study.
00:32:55 And you do that because the phase three study
00:32:57 costs a lot of money, in our case, cost almost a billion.
00:33:00 So you don’t want to go and risk a billion
00:33:03 in blinded data normally before you do a lot of experiments
00:33:08 to make sure that the product that you’re putting
00:33:10 in the phase three is the right one.
00:33:13 We didn’t have that time.
00:33:15 So we risked all the money.
00:33:17 So we went into, we condensed all the time
00:33:21 towards this phase three.
00:33:23 But the phase three study had to follow all the rules
00:33:27 that any study follows when we do this trial.
00:33:31 Could you just briefly describe the basics
00:33:34 of what is phase one, what is phase two, what is phase three?
00:33:37 Let’s say that there are so many phases
00:33:39 when you try first of all to find
00:33:42 what is the right vaccine.
00:33:43 We tried from 20 different vaccines,
00:33:45 we nailed down to four.
00:33:47 And for those four, we selected eventually two
00:33:50 and then eventually one.
00:33:52 Once you have those selections,
00:33:55 what is the dose you’re going to use?
00:33:57 And then we tried multiple different doses
00:33:59 to see which one we think is the best.
00:34:02 What does trying entail in those early days?
00:34:05 You go first of all with smaller doses in humans.
00:34:11 And then after you have done a lot of experiments
00:34:13 in animals so that you can feel that it is safe enough
00:34:17 to go to humans and then go with very low dose.
00:34:20 And then you gradually increase the dose
00:34:22 and then you monitor those humans to make sure
00:34:24 that there are not any, let’s say reactogenicity
00:34:28 to what you are giving them.
00:34:29 At the same time, you start to measure what it’s doing
00:34:32 in terms of immune responses.
00:34:34 So you do that with multiple vaccines
00:34:36 and you do that with multiple doses
00:34:37 and you do that with multiple ages of people,
00:34:40 young people, old people.
00:34:42 And eventually from the 20 vaccines to multiple doses,
00:34:47 to multiple schedules, is it after three weeks
00:34:49 the second dose or is it after four weeks
00:34:51 or after six months?
00:34:53 All of that will inform you that I think this is the vaccine,
00:34:59 this is the dose, this is the scheme
00:35:02 that I believe will give me the best results.
00:35:05 And when you have that,
00:35:06 then you go to do what we call the phase three.
00:35:09 This is a very big study with thousands of people
00:35:14 where you use the vaccine that you think is the right one
00:35:17 and a placebo.
00:35:19 The placebo and the vaccine, they look identical.
00:35:22 Nobody knows if is injected a placebo or a vaccine.
00:35:26 The physician that makes the injection,
00:35:29 the doctor doesn’t know if he’s injecting placebo
00:35:32 or vaccine, he knows a barcode.
00:35:35 Only the computer knows.
00:35:37 In order to go into this computer, there are keys
00:35:39 and there are at least two people
00:35:41 that needs to put their keys
00:35:42 so that someone can see the data.
00:35:44 And those people, they have legal obligations
00:35:48 never to do that, right?
00:35:49 So before a certain point.
00:35:52 So all of that is blind.
00:35:53 The idea is that when you go into this study,
00:35:58 you need to make sure that you are going with the right one.
00:36:00 That’s why it takes so much time.
00:36:02 But the study is the study.
00:36:04 You need to have a significant number of people
00:36:07 that will give the two
00:36:09 and then you let them live their lives.
00:36:10 And then you see how many of them will get the disease.
00:36:13 And then you see if there are differences
00:36:16 in percentage of infections for the vaccinated
00:36:19 compared to the non vaccinated.
00:36:20 At the same time, you’re monitoring all of them
00:36:22 to see if there are differences in the safety profile.
00:36:25 If those that go to placebo have the same,
00:36:27 let’s say, heart attacks with those that they didn’t.
00:36:31 They got the vaccine because heart attacks will happen
00:36:33 if you have 50,000 people because it’s part of life.
00:36:37 These are the, all these processes are very, very,
00:36:40 very well established and since years.
00:36:43 What we did the last one was exactly the same
00:36:46 as we did always.
00:36:47 We just didn’t lose time.
00:36:49 We didn’t, we’re not careful with money.
00:36:51 Instead of recruiting 50,000 people over a year,
00:36:57 because we had let’s say 30 hospitals doing the recruitment,
00:37:01 we went with 150 hospitals doing the recruitment.
00:37:04 That cost a lot of money.
00:37:05 But instead of recruiting them in a year,
00:37:07 we recruited them in three, four months.
00:37:10 So I did this type of things by taking return on investment,
00:37:15 taking costs out of the equation
00:37:17 and we were able to achieve this result.
00:37:19 But it’s not the process, believe me.
00:37:22 It is the heart of the people.
00:37:25 People don’t know what they can and what they cannot do.
00:37:29 And if anything, they have a serious tendency
00:37:32 to underestimate what they can do.
00:37:35 And always, when you ask them something
00:37:38 that is seemingly impossible,
00:37:40 they will think out of the box to be able to deliver.
00:37:44 We discussed about the timing.
00:37:45 Instead of eight years, we then asked them to do it
00:37:48 in six, we asked them to do it in eight months.
00:37:52 Our normal manufacturing yearly production of Pfizer
00:37:57 was 200 million doses of vaccines every year.
00:38:00 That’s what we are doing in the last 10 years.
00:38:03 We didn’t ask them to make 300 million doses for a new vaccine.
00:38:06 We asked them to make 3 billion doses for a new vaccine.
00:38:11 The discovery phase of a new molecule,
00:38:13 like the treatment that we have now, the pill against COVID,
00:38:16 takes four years.
00:38:18 We didn’t ask them to do it in three.
00:38:19 We asked them to do it in four months,
00:38:20 which is what they did.
00:38:22 When you are setting this type of goals,
00:38:25 they know immediately, they cannot just think
00:38:29 within the box.
00:38:30 And immediately, this is where the human ingenuity
00:38:32 and the heart comes.
00:38:34 And this is how they surprised all of us.
00:38:37 So there’s incredible science and engineering
00:38:40 going on here.
00:38:40 This is an incredible thing. Absolutely.
00:38:43 This is what’s bothering me,
00:38:45 that the conversation in public is often not about that.
00:38:52 It’s about politics, unfortunately.
00:38:53 Politics.
00:38:54 So I spent the day with Elon Musk yesterday.
00:38:57 He works with rockets.
00:39:00 Similar situation as with Pfizer,
00:39:02 in the sense that there’s NASA
00:39:04 and then there’s this private company.
00:39:07 And that’s a source of incredible inspiration to people.
00:39:11 No politics, very little politics.
00:39:15 So this is part of the thing I’m trying to,
00:39:18 I’m hoping to do our little part in this conversation
00:39:22 to help untangle a little bit,
00:39:25 just reveal the beauty and the power of the thing
00:39:30 that was done here, especially with the vaccine,
00:39:32 but other things that are being done
00:39:33 with the antiviral drug.
00:39:37 Let me just kind of linger on the safety.
00:39:39 What can you say?
00:39:42 There’s a lot of people that are concerned
00:39:45 that the Pfizer vaccine, by the way,
00:39:49 of which I took two shots, no booster yet,
00:39:54 is unsafe.
00:39:56 What do you say to people that say that?
00:39:59 No, they should not fear something like that.
00:40:03 It’s completely wrong.
00:40:04 There is no medical product in the history of humanity
00:40:09 that have been tested as much as this vaccine.
00:40:12 Has been administered to hundreds of millions of people.
00:40:16 And because of the importance of COVID,
00:40:19 they have been scrutinized, those people, constantly.
00:40:24 Right now, healthcare authorities are looking
00:40:27 for every single signal around the world
00:40:30 of people that they got the vaccine
00:40:31 and try to see if it is vaccine related or not.
00:40:34 There are electronic medical records
00:40:36 that will tell us when and what happened
00:40:40 to a person when he did got the vaccine.
00:40:43 And we know now, we have so high certainty
00:40:49 that it is so safe, exactly as the data sheet says
00:40:56 about this vaccine, more than any other product.
00:40:59 They should not be afraid of something like that.
00:41:01 And they should not listen to information
00:41:06 that it is misinformation, that it is spread on purpose.
00:41:10 Well, I don’t like the word misinformation
00:41:13 because, you know, again, back to the Soviet Union,
00:41:21 anyone who opposes the state is spreading misinformation.
00:41:24 So you can basically call anything misinformation.
00:41:27 That’s the unfortunate times we live in,
00:41:29 is you can call anyone, you can basically call anybody
00:41:34 a liar and say, I’m the sole possessor of the truth.
00:41:37 And just no offense to me, just because you wear a tie,
00:41:40 it doesn’t mean you’re any more likely to be
00:41:43 in the possession of the truth than anyone else.
00:41:45 So.
00:41:46 I wouldn’t disagree with that at all.
00:41:48 I don’t think that.
00:41:49 That’s somebody who’s not wearing a tie.
00:41:50 And as you can, people can see
00:41:52 that I’m not wearing a tie and you are.
00:41:54 But it’s not about being able,
00:41:58 those that they have the power to impose on the others,
00:42:04 the stigma that what you’re saying is misinformation.
00:42:09 But there are a few things that as society
00:42:12 we have accomplished and science is one of them.
00:42:15 And data is, and analytics of data is another one.
00:42:21 And to say that something which is highly scientific
00:42:26 by people that they are not scientists.
00:42:31 I think that it is not what you’re describing,
00:42:35 what used to happen in Soviet Union
00:42:37 or in any other autocratic regime in the world right now.
00:42:42 But I definitely do think that the scientists,
00:42:47 the public science communicators I’ve listened to
00:42:49 over COVID have really disappointed me
00:42:52 because they have not spoken with empathy.
00:42:56 They haven’t sufficiently in my view
00:42:58 have put their ego aside and really listened to people.
00:43:02 Yes, people that don’t have a PhD,
00:43:03 people who have not really,
00:43:07 maybe not even taken like a biology course in college
00:43:10 or something like that.
00:43:11 But still they have children, they worry, they fear.
00:43:17 They don’t know who to trust.
00:43:19 They don’t know if they should listen to the CEO of Pfizer
00:43:23 who might have other incentives in mind,
00:43:26 who might just care about money and nothing else.
00:43:29 And so they just use common sense and they ask questions.
00:43:32 And I think to them talking down to them
00:43:35 as if they’re not intelligent and so on
00:43:36 is something scientists have done
00:43:39 almost like rolled their eyes.
00:43:40 And that disappoints me because I think
00:43:42 that’s kind of what is the source of division.
00:43:46 Humility is a virtue.
00:43:47 Yes.
00:43:48 And the fact that you are educated
00:43:51 doesn’t mean that you are having either humility or empathy
00:43:56 or you have good human qualities.
00:43:58 This was never and will never be a metric
00:44:03 of judging this type of virtues.
00:44:06 Those that they do this, they’re wrong.
00:44:09 And actually they are not doing good service
00:44:13 to the public health because they’re undermining.
00:44:15 People are not stupid.
00:44:17 They see if you’re not be respecting them
00:44:21 and if you’re not respecting their need to learn
00:44:23 because that affects their health,
00:44:25 the health of the mother, of the kids.
00:44:27 So I fully agree with you that we should be very patient
00:44:31 to explain again and again and again what is happening.
00:44:36 And the vast majority of the people
00:44:37 that they don’t get vaccinations right now
00:44:39 is because they’re afraid.
00:44:41 It’s not for any other reason.
00:44:42 It’s not that they have an agenda.
00:44:44 What I’m saying it is there is a small number of people
00:44:48 that they have made business for them
00:44:52 to profit from this anxiety.
00:44:56 I’ll give you an example.
00:44:59 I have been arrested by FBI.
00:45:00 This is what someone wrote.
00:45:03 I read it, I laughed.
00:45:05 I mean, okay, this is where they take it.
00:45:08 There was a reason why they wrote it that.
00:45:11 The Pfizer CEO was arrested by the FBI
00:45:13 because they want to create doubts
00:45:15 in the minds of the people that they’re afraid
00:45:18 and say, look, if the FBI arrested him,
00:45:19 likely I will not do the vaccine.
00:45:21 But I laughed.
00:45:22 A week later, the wife of the Pfizer CEO died.
00:45:29 There is a picture in this website of my wife.
00:45:34 Someone sends to me, now I’m pissed.
00:45:36 I’m not laughing.
00:45:38 I tried to find my kids to tell them,
00:45:41 if you read something, mom is fine.
00:45:42 Don’t worry.
00:45:44 Then I remember that she has very old parents back in Greece.
00:45:49 We start calling them to making sure
00:45:51 because so you know that that will be picked up
00:45:53 by Greek newspapers and they will publish it, okay?
00:45:56 They are those people that wrote these things.
00:45:58 They know very well that my wife didn’t die
00:46:01 and died because she was vaccinated, right?
00:46:04 So this is the narratives that they are on purpose forming
00:46:09 to profit from the stress and the anxiety of good people.
00:46:18 And that’s something I have to kind of,
00:46:20 people that listen to this, that kind of doubt institutions,
00:46:24 I do also want to say that there’s quite a few folks
00:46:29 who realize they can make money from saying,
00:46:35 the man is lying to you.
00:46:37 The government is lying to you.
00:46:40 It’s all corrupt.
00:46:42 It’s all a scam.
00:46:44 Big pharma is lying to you.
00:46:46 They’re manipulating you.
00:46:48 I’m surprised at how much money can be made with that.
00:46:51 And it’s sad.
00:46:52 So you have to, just as people use their common sense
00:46:56 to be skeptical when listening to politicians
00:47:00 and powerful figures, they should be skeptical
00:47:03 to also when listening to sort of the conspiracy theorists
00:47:06 or not even the conspiracy theorists,
00:47:08 but people who raise questions about institutions.
00:47:11 Think on your own, think critically with an open mind
00:47:16 that everyone can be manipulating you,
00:47:19 but also everybody has the capacity to do good.
00:47:22 And I think science in its pure form,
00:47:26 not when entangled with institutions is a beautiful thing.
00:47:31 And in the hands of many companies,
00:47:33 it is a beautiful thing at scale.
00:47:35 Still, you have a lot of incentive
00:47:39 as having created the vaccine at Pfizer,
00:47:42 this incredible technology to sing it praises.
00:47:49 So there’s a kind of, you know, people are skeptical,
00:47:53 like how much do we trust,
00:47:55 how excited Albert is about this vaccine.
00:48:00 So for example, I mean, not to do a Shakespearean analysis
00:48:04 of your Twitter, but I think he tweeted something
00:48:07 about a study with a 100% efficacy of the vaccine
00:48:11 or in stopping and transmission or something like that.
00:48:15 Do you regret sort of being like over representing
00:48:23 the effectiveness of the vaccine,
00:48:24 technically saying correct things,
00:48:27 but just kind of like highlighting the super positive things
00:48:32 that may be misinterpreted, you know, saying 100%?
00:48:36 No, I never said something 100%.
00:48:38 Every time I speak, if a number is 100%,
00:48:41 I rush to say that in biology, there is nothing 100%
00:48:44 because always there will be
00:48:45 when you go to the millions, okay?
00:48:47 There were in the study things that were 100%,
00:48:50 for example, deaths or in South Africa.
00:48:52 When we tried, there was 100% efficacy.
00:48:56 Clearly, it’s more numbers.
00:48:58 When the numbers will become much bigger,
00:49:00 the 100% will not hold, but will be 95, 96.
00:49:04 So still the direction of this is the point.
00:49:07 So I’m very, very careful what I tweet.
00:49:11 And in addition to how careful I am,
00:49:15 I have people that they are looking at
00:49:18 and they’re having second or third opinions
00:49:20 to make sure that we don’t put, why?
00:49:22 Because I know that people are listening to me right now,
00:49:24 everything I say, and I want to make sure
00:49:27 that they continue not only being clear
00:49:32 as to what I want to say, so there are no misunderstandings,
00:49:36 but also I maintain the trust of the people.
00:49:38 I don’t think that someone who only cherry picks information
00:49:43 and only emphasizes positive things,
00:49:45 it’s someone that is the one to be trusted.
00:49:48 And I want me and Pfizer to be trusted.
00:49:52 So many felt the vaccine was presented as a cure
00:49:55 that wouldn’t require regular booster shots.
00:49:58 Was that something you believed early on?
00:50:00 Did you always believe that many regular shots
00:50:02 would be required?
00:50:04 And maybe in a bigger picture,
00:50:05 how many do you think this will, for the Pfizer vaccine,
00:50:10 is it something you see that’s taking a booster shot
00:50:13 regularly, like annually?
00:50:15 Yes, in the beginning when we had the first months
00:50:17 with the vaccine, people would ask me,
00:50:20 do we need another one?
00:50:20 And I said, we don’t know.
00:50:22 I was very clear about it.
00:50:24 Then around April, May, I start seeing the first data
00:50:27 and I made statements that I think we will need a booster
00:50:31 around eight to 12 months after the second dose.
00:50:34 And then after that, annually vaccinations,
00:50:37 this is what I said,
00:50:39 believe is one of the most likely scenarios.
00:50:42 And it was based on the data that I had,
00:50:44 but then Delta came.
00:50:46 And because I always making the caveat
00:50:48 that with absent a new variant with everything we know.
00:50:52 With Delta, it was proven that we need the booster
00:50:55 to move to the three, to the six months.
00:50:58 And this is what happened.
00:51:00 And I still said, I think the booster is a six months.
00:51:05 And then I think it will be an annual revaccination likely.
00:51:08 We have to monitor to see the data,
00:51:10 but this is the likely scenario.
00:51:12 Now we have Omicron.
00:51:15 And Omicron says that two doses might be challenging.
00:51:19 We don’t know exactly yet, but three doses work.
00:51:22 So clearly a lot of countries already started moving now
00:51:26 the third dose, not from six months to three.
00:51:29 So that they will reduce the period
00:51:33 that people will not be protected with the third dose.
00:51:39 I don’t know with Omicron if how long this will last.
00:51:44 And frankly, I don’t know if we will need a new vaccine
00:51:47 tailor made to Omicron based on everything we know so far.
00:51:51 We are monitoring and we will know way more
00:51:53 in the weeks to come.
00:51:54 If there is a need for a new vaccine, we will have it.
00:51:58 And if there is a need for mass production
00:52:00 of this new vaccine, I can also feel very comfortable
00:52:04 that we will not lose any of our capacity
00:52:06 that we have developed.
00:52:08 Right now we are running at 1 billion almost approximately
00:52:12 doses per quarter, four per year.
00:52:15 And if we have to switch and have half of that
00:52:18 in the new, half of that in the old,
00:52:20 we will do still 4 billion doses.
00:52:22 So I think the world should feel very, very comfortable
00:52:26 that if there is a need, we will be ahead of the virus.
00:52:30 Yeah, you did, you delivered or produced 3 billion
00:52:33 this year vaccines and you’re on track
00:52:35 to do 4 billion next year.
00:52:37 I mean, if we had a lot more time,
00:52:41 we would talk about how the heck you achieve
00:52:43 that kind of scale, it’s truly incredible.
00:52:46 Let me ask the policy question.
00:52:48 What are your feelings about vaccine mandates
00:52:52 in terms of, do you think the most effective way
00:52:56 to vaccinate the population is to acquire it?
00:53:00 Or do you go with the American way
00:53:04 and give people the freedom to choose?
00:53:07 I think it is a very difficult topic
00:53:12 and a very difficult decision for whoever needs to make it.
00:53:15 And clearly it’s not me.
00:53:16 It is the public health officials of every country
00:53:19 that they have to make this decision.
00:53:21 I have to make the decision for Pfizer employees.
00:53:24 And I had to balance the fear of those that they work,
00:53:31 that they want to feel that the others are vaccinated
00:53:35 and the fear of those that they don’t want
00:53:36 to get the vaccine.
00:53:38 And eventually I came to the decision
00:53:40 that we will mandate it at Pfizer.
00:53:42 We are flexible, we are giving exceptions,
00:53:44 of course for health, maybe some religions,
00:53:47 but we decided to mandate it.
00:53:51 Now, at Pfizer, when we did this decision,
00:53:54 we were at 90% vaccination rates
00:53:57 when we said we are going to mandate it.
00:53:59 And that took it up to 96.
00:54:03 It works, right?
00:54:06 This 10% was never going to move, I felt.
00:54:10 Because no matter what, you have a small number of people
00:54:12 that really are scared.
00:54:14 And they don’t feel comfortable to do it, okay?
00:54:17 It worked in our case, we took it to 96%.
00:54:20 I’m happy for those people.
00:54:22 A lot will not disease and some will not die
00:54:25 of those people.
00:54:26 But it’s not me to say, because the debate,
00:54:31 it’s serious debate.
00:54:32 And there are a lot of pros and cons
00:54:34 if you need to push people,
00:54:35 if you need to give them the freedom.
00:54:38 And it comes with the territory.
00:54:42 If you are elected to run a country,
00:54:45 you should be ready to make difficult decisions.
00:54:47 And no matter what decision you make,
00:54:49 there will be fake stories written about you
00:54:50 as we talked about.
00:54:51 You will not be able to please everyone.
00:54:53 Yes.
00:54:55 Well, let me just say that I think,
00:54:57 again, coming from the Soviet Union,
00:54:59 I think at the public level, at the federal level,
00:55:01 mandates is a really bad idea.
00:55:06 Even if it’s good for the health of the populace,
00:55:10 there’s something about preserving the freedom
00:55:12 is really powerful about this country.
00:55:14 Like doing the hard work of convincing people
00:55:17 to get vaccinated, to choose to get vaccinated
00:55:20 if they want, but still have the freedom not to.
00:55:23 That’s a really powerful freedom.
00:55:25 To me, it’s super lazy to mandate.
00:55:28 People should understand the science
00:55:31 and want to get vaccinated.
00:55:38 Do you think children need to get vaccinated?
00:55:41 I do.
00:55:42 I do think that they need to get vaccinated.
00:55:44 So age ranges five to 16.
00:55:48 There’s a lot of parents
00:55:53 that fear for the wellbeing of their children.
00:55:56 Can you empathize with those parents?
00:55:57 Can you steel man their arguments
00:56:01 against the vaccine for their children?
00:56:04 You know, because people know who I am.
00:56:06 I had the opportunity to interact with parents
00:56:12 before that was, let’s say, approved.
00:56:15 And there were so many, way more,
00:56:18 that I had a lot of empathy
00:56:21 because they were afraid for their kids
00:56:24 because they didn’t have a vaccine.
00:56:26 And they were the ones that were speaking at that time.
00:56:30 Bring me vaccine.
00:56:31 When are you going to bring me a vaccine?
00:56:32 I really fear.
00:56:33 I feel that this is unfair,
00:56:35 but I am protected.
00:56:36 My husband is protected.
00:56:38 My old son is protected.
00:56:39 And my little sweetheart,
00:56:41 because she’s below the age, is not protected.
00:56:45 Now that we have the vaccines,
00:56:47 I’m sure that those that they are afraid of the vaccine,
00:56:50 not of the disease,
00:56:51 which are smaller number, admittedly.
00:56:54 Also, they will have, if they’re afraid of them,
00:56:57 I’m sure that they will afraid even more about their kids
00:57:00 because they love, I would say,
00:57:02 more than they love themselves.
00:57:04 So it’s going to be this situation.
00:57:06 And again, the same.
00:57:08 How can you do to demonstrate, to convince people,
00:57:12 to win the minds and the hearts of the people
00:57:14 that this is the right thing to do?
00:57:15 What do you think about that calculation?
00:57:16 Because the risk for kids is very low.
00:57:19 Kids do die.
00:57:20 Kids do go to the hospital from COVID.
00:57:22 Yes.
00:57:23 But the rate is very low.
00:57:25 The rate is lower, but kids, they do die.
00:57:30 And how can you say that I’m not going to,
00:57:32 I’m not going to protect a kid
00:57:34 for something that it is likely to happen?
00:57:36 And it is not only that.
00:57:38 What happens in the school
00:57:39 when they stop the education process
00:57:42 because a kid got the disease
00:57:44 and they don’t have vaccines so that they can control.
00:57:48 It is such a big disruption
00:57:50 and such a big risk for the health of the kids
00:57:58 that it shouldn’t be a debate.
00:57:59 Look, how many kids are having polio right now?
00:58:06 Way fewer number than those
00:58:08 that they’re having COVID in the hospital.
00:58:11 But everybody’s getting the vaccine.
00:58:14 Well, polio was deadlier for kids.
00:58:17 But it’s not now.
00:58:18 So why a kid to do it now?
00:58:21 Because it needs to be protected.
00:58:23 Well, the unique thing about the COVID vaccine
00:58:26 is a new type of technology too.
00:58:28 So there’s an extra concern.
00:58:30 Choosing to vaccinate a child,
00:58:33 you’re making a choice that can potentially hurt them.
00:58:37 That’s the way parents that are hesitant
00:58:39 about the vaccine think.
00:58:41 I think choosing to vaccinate children makes a choice
00:58:47 so that something could not potentially hurt them,
00:58:49 which is the disease.
00:58:50 That’s why we are doing vaccinations since ever.
00:58:54 I know that there are people
00:58:57 that they’re concerned for themselves and for their kids.
00:59:00 What I know it is that I’m a scientist and I’m a parent.
00:59:05 And I am telling you that vaccines
00:59:09 is a very good thing for kids.
00:59:10 And thank God we were able to develop.
00:59:14 So we’ve talked quite a bit about the vaccine,
00:59:16 but there’s an incredible new technology
00:59:18 that Pfizer is developing
00:59:20 with the PaxLovid antiviral for COVID.
00:59:24 Where does that stand?
00:59:26 How does that work?
00:59:28 And how are you able to develop it in four months?
00:59:33 Like you said, and all of that in just a few minutes.
00:59:37 First of all, what this is about,
00:59:39 this is a real game changer.
00:59:41 This is a course of treatment
00:59:44 that you get only if you get the disease, you get COVID.
00:59:48 Then what happens is that you will take for five days,
00:59:51 pills day and night, and twice a day for five days.
00:59:56 And instead of 10 people from those that disease
00:59:59 to go to hospital, only one will go.
01:00:02 This is an end with all the caveats
01:00:06 that the numbers are small, no one died.
01:00:08 It was 100% efficacy on deaths.
01:00:11 Of course, I’m sure that in real world,
01:00:14 when the numbers are getting very high,
01:00:16 we may have 99 instead of 100.
01:00:18 But these are spectacular results
01:00:23 for something that you can take home and stay home.
01:00:25 The biggest problem right now in Europe, in the US,
01:00:29 when we have surges,
01:00:30 every time that we have a surge of COVID,
01:00:34 it is that the ICUs are full,
01:00:36 the hospitals are paralyzed,
01:00:39 they have to postpone elective surgeries,
01:00:41 they have to postpone other operations
01:00:43 because they don’t have the capacity because of that.
01:00:46 Keeping people out of the hospitals, home,
01:00:50 keeping people without dying,
01:00:55 it is something that I didn’t have before.
01:00:59 And this is a significant, significant game changer.
01:01:03 I have to ask a controversial, difficult question.
01:01:08 What are your thoughts about ivermectin?
01:01:11 Has it sufficiently been studied?
01:01:14 Has Pfizer considered it in its, like I said,
01:01:17 incredible development of the antiviral
01:01:20 as a comparator or that kind of thing?
01:01:22 Just investigate it in general.
01:01:25 The reason I bring it up,
01:01:26 because I’ve read quite a few criticisms of people.
01:01:30 There’s been some comparisons
01:01:31 of paxilovir to the ivermectin,
01:01:33 and I think people should look up.
01:01:36 There is Dr. John Campbell that describes that comparison
01:01:39 and makes that claim,
01:01:40 and there’s quite a lot of people that debunk
01:01:42 or argue against that.
01:01:44 You can do your own research,
01:01:46 but there is a lot of people that kind of see
01:01:48 this free drug without patents on it
01:01:52 and say this could be the savior.
01:01:54 So can you just speak to that comparison?
01:01:57 It’s not the first time.
01:01:58 If you remember, there were other compounds
01:02:00 that were claimed that they are the solution to COVID,
01:02:08 and clearly they were proving that they’re not.
01:02:12 There are compounds that are solutions
01:02:13 and compounds that are not.
01:02:15 I, as a scientist, and I discuss with our scientists,
01:02:19 they don’t see any reason why a medicine like ivermectin,
01:02:24 which is a parasitic site,
01:02:25 to be able to act on COVID,
01:02:28 and so they don’t see that there’s any connection,
01:02:31 and they haven’t seen any paper
01:02:34 that describes someone that used it that had any results.
01:02:37 I’m sure that there will be some people that will claim,
01:02:40 because people are claiming anything,
01:02:43 but I don’t think that there was any paper
01:02:46 in any peer review magazine,
01:02:49 any reliable scientific magazine, to support this claim.
01:02:52 So we are focusing on saving people’s lives.
01:02:56 We are not focusing on craziness.
01:03:02 Well, to push back, there is quite a lot of papers,
01:03:06 but the studies are small,
01:03:08 so there’s no conclusive evidence, and that’s the point.
01:03:10 I haven’t seen any that it is reliable.
01:03:12 I don’t know where are these, small or big, reliable.
01:03:16 I haven’t seen any.
01:03:18 Well, some of the big ones have been retracted,
01:03:21 which means they weren’t legitimate.
01:03:24 Yes.
01:03:24 Yeah, so?
01:03:27 This is definitely something that people need to look into,
01:03:29 the people that kind of question
01:03:31 are the effectiveness of ivermectin,
01:03:33 definitely something to think about,
01:03:35 and I think it’s the reason that past public.
01:03:37 It was chloroquine alone before.
01:03:39 Yes.
01:03:40 For God’s sake.
01:03:41 That’s why PaxLovid.
01:03:42 How many people died because of that?
01:03:45 Yeah, this is the dangerous thing.
01:03:48 This is the sad thing.
01:03:51 PaxLovid has been studying thousands of people
01:03:53 and will be under the scrutiny, not only of regulators,
01:03:58 but as we will go into the implementation,
01:04:00 as it happened in many countries,
01:04:02 they will monitor to see what’s happened.
01:04:04 Let’s say that whatever we do, once it is out there,
01:04:07 within a few weeks, they will know all hospitals,
01:04:10 if it works or not, because they will see the statistics.
01:04:13 We’ve gone through one of the more difficult periods
01:04:19 in recent human history over the past two years,
01:04:21 like as a society.
01:04:23 What gives you hope about the future
01:04:26 for our human civilization?
01:04:29 You look into the next few years.
01:04:31 I think the human ingenuity.
01:04:34 I think although there is,
01:04:36 the world always is progressing,
01:04:39 although there are a lot of things
01:04:40 that need to be fixed in the society of 2020.
01:04:45 The society of 2020 is better at large
01:04:49 than things 50 years back, 100 years back,
01:04:53 in all different aspects, from poverty,
01:04:56 for human rights, from science,
01:05:00 from quality of life, from any aspect.
01:05:03 I am positive that humans can create
01:05:09 and always create a better future
01:05:11 and will continue doing so.
01:05:14 You have helped save the lives of millions of people,
01:05:17 helped improve the quality of their lives,
01:05:20 but you yourself are just one biological organism
01:05:24 with an expiration date.
01:05:26 Do you ponder your mortality?
01:05:28 Do you think about your death?
01:05:30 Are you afraid of death?
01:05:32 That’s a very interesting question.
01:05:34 I was discussing with a lot of people
01:05:37 that I was fearless of death, I couldn’t care less,
01:05:40 when I was young.
01:05:41 The first time that I start feeling
01:05:46 that I want to be around was when I had kids.
01:05:49 And then I started feeling that,
01:05:52 oh gosh, I hope I will be around to see their wedding.
01:05:56 I hope they will be around to see their children.
01:05:59 So if there is something that scares me,
01:06:02 the possibility I will not be part of their lives anymore
01:06:05 and I will not be watching.
01:06:06 I hope there is life upstairs,
01:06:09 so I will be able to watch them from there.
01:06:11 From upstairs, get a nice overview.
01:06:15 Let me ask the big ridiculous question.
01:06:19 And you only have two minutes or less to answer it.
01:06:22 What is the meaning of life?
01:06:24 What’s the meaning of this whole thing?
01:06:26 You said ingenuity is the thing that gives you hope.
01:06:29 We seem to be all busy trying to help each other,
01:06:31 trying to build a better world.
01:06:33 Why are we doing that?
01:06:34 I would repeat something that Steve Jobs has said.
01:06:38 Death is life’s biggest invention.
01:06:42 It eliminates the old and gives place to the new.
01:06:47 Life is all about moving forward.
01:06:51 Life is all about creating new things.
01:06:56 And maybe everyone is a contributor,
01:07:00 but no one is the owner.
01:07:03 And always creating something new.
01:07:05 Always.
01:07:06 Adding something beautiful into the world,
01:07:08 maybe a little bit of love.
01:07:10 Hopefully.
01:07:11 Albert, thank you so much.
01:07:12 It’s a huge honor that you go through
01:07:15 some of these difficult questions with me today
01:07:18 and that you give your extremely valuable time
01:07:20 for this conversation.
01:07:21 Thank you so much for talking today.
01:07:23 Thank you for your interest and I’m happy,
01:07:25 as I was telling you before,
01:07:26 but I can brag with my kids that I was in your podcast
01:07:31 because you are their hero.
01:07:33 You made it.
01:07:34 I made it.
01:07:35 Thank you.
01:07:36 Thank you.
01:07:37 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Albert Burla.
01:07:40 To support this podcast,
01:07:41 please check out our sponsors in the description.
01:07:44 And now, let me leave you with some words from Oscar Wilde.
01:07:48 The truth is rarely pure and never simple.
01:07:52 Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.