Transcript
00:00:00 The following is a conversation with Zev Weinstein,
00:00:03 a young man with a brilliant, bold and hopeful mind
00:00:06 that I had the great fortune of talking to
00:00:08 on a recent afternoon.
00:00:10 He happens to be Eric Weinstein’s son,
00:00:13 but I invited Zev not because of that,
00:00:15 but because I got a chance to listen to him speak
00:00:17 on a few occasions and was captivated
00:00:20 by how deeply he thought about this world
00:00:22 at such a young age.
00:00:24 And I thought that it might be fun
00:00:25 to explore this world of ours together with him
00:00:29 for a time through this conversation.
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00:00:52 As a side note, let me say that Zev acknowledges
00:00:56 the fear associated with participating in public discourse
00:00:59 and is brave enough to join in at a young age,
00:01:03 to push forward, to change his mind publicly,
00:01:05 to learn, to articulate difficult nuanced ideas
00:01:09 and grow from the conversations that follow.
00:01:11 In this, I hope he leads the next generation of minds
00:01:15 that is joining and steering the collective intelligence
00:01:18 of this big ant colony we think of
00:01:21 as our human civilization.
00:01:23 If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,
00:01:25 review it on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify,
00:01:29 support on Patreon, or connect with me
00:01:31 on Twitter at Lex Friedman.
00:01:33 And now, here’s my conversation with Zev Weinstein.
00:01:38 You’ve said that philosophy becomes more dangerous
00:01:42 in difficult times.
00:01:43 What do you mean by that?
00:01:44 Interestingly, I think I mean two things by that.
00:01:48 And I think firstly, I should clarify,
00:01:51 when I say philosophy, I sort of mean
00:01:53 in a very traditional sense, just thinking, ideation.
00:01:58 And that could be reconsidering our notions of self
00:02:03 in a very traditional sense, which we consider philosophy,
00:02:06 or that could be like technological innovation.
00:02:10 I think it’s important to recognize all of these
00:02:13 as philosophies that we can not question
00:02:16 whether it’s important to promote thought.
00:02:18 I think the other thing I should clarify
00:02:21 is when I say difficult times,
00:02:23 I mean times when nothing is growing,
00:02:25 and so the risk for real conflict is much greater
00:02:31 because people are incentivized to fight over the things
00:02:34 which already exist.
00:02:37 I think when times are not difficult,
00:02:41 the people with the greatest power
00:02:44 are usually the people who are very creative,
00:02:47 generating a lot, and that really requires ideation
00:02:50 or philosophy of some sort.
00:02:53 I think when times become stagnant,
00:02:56 the important successful people become the people
00:03:00 who are very good at protecting their own pieces of the pie
00:03:04 and taking others.
00:03:07 I think that those people have to be very opposed
00:03:11 to any sort of thinking that could restructure society
00:03:16 or conventions about who should succeed.
00:03:21 And so firstly, I mean by that
00:03:25 that it becomes much more dangerous for a person
00:03:31 to think deeply and question during a time
00:03:35 when the important people are those concerned
00:03:38 with making sure no one rocks the boat.
00:03:41 One example of this would be Socrates and his execution
00:03:45 because everyone was happy enough
00:03:47 to sit through his questions before there was war
00:03:50 and poverty and distress,
00:03:52 and afterwards it just became too dangerous.
00:03:54 The other thing I mean by that is that the consequences
00:03:58 of thinking deeply carry much greater potential
00:04:03 for real catastrophe when everyone is desperate.
00:04:06 So like for example, the communist manifesto
00:04:11 was probably much more dangerous during early 1900s Russia
00:04:16 than it was during the 1848 revolutions
00:04:19 because I think people were in much worse shape
00:04:24 and desperate people are very willing to dive
00:04:27 into anything new that might bring the future
00:04:30 without fully calculating
00:04:33 whatever the consequences or risks might be.
00:04:36 So it is both more dangerous for a person
00:04:39 to have creative ideas and those ideas
00:04:42 are more dangerous when times are tough.
00:04:46 And by dangerous you mean it challenges the people
00:04:51 with power who want to maintain that power
00:04:55 in times of stagnation when there’s not much growth,
00:04:59 innovation, creativity, all that kind of stuff.
00:05:01 Right, and we know that if nothing new is created,
00:05:06 people have promises that they’ve made
00:05:10 about what will be paid to whom, what debt structure is.
00:05:14 The only possibility if stagnation lasts for long enough
00:05:20 is really some kind of great conflict, great war
00:05:24 because people have to take from others
00:05:25 to make good on their own promises.
00:05:28 So we know that by denying any sort of grand ideation
00:05:33 we are accepting that there will be
00:05:36 some kind of great catastrophe.
00:05:39 And so we have to understand that philosophy
00:05:42 is the most important when we’ve seen
00:05:47 too much stagnation for too long.
00:05:49 It is also very dangerous
00:05:53 and it’s dangerous for the people who are doing it
00:05:55 and it’s dangerous for the people who believe it
00:05:57 but it’s kind of our only way out ever.
00:06:00 And again, by philosophy you mean the bigger,
00:06:03 so it’s not academic philosophy
00:06:05 or this kind of games played in the space
00:06:08 of just like moral philosophy and all those metaphysics,
00:06:12 all that kind of stuff.
00:06:12 You mean just thinking deeply about this world,
00:06:15 thinking from first principles.
00:06:17 I think your like Twitter line involves something about like.
00:06:22 Trying to piece everything together from first principles.
00:06:24 So that’s fundamentally what being philosophical
00:06:27 about this world is and that’s where the people
00:06:31 who are thinking deeply about this world
00:06:33 are the ones who are feeding,
00:06:36 who are the catalyst of this growth in society and so on.
00:06:39 Yeah, I mean, I also think that the real implication
00:06:43 of moral philosophy can be something
00:06:48 that most would consider like a real political implication.
00:06:52 So I think all philosophy really ties together
00:06:55 because there has to be some sort of grand structure
00:06:58 to all thought and how it relates.
00:07:01 Do you think this growth and innovation
00:07:06 and improvement can last forever?
00:07:10 We’ve seen some incredible,
00:07:14 the thing that humans have been able to accomplish
00:07:16 over the past several hundred years is just,
00:07:20 I mean, awe inspiring and every moment in that history,
00:07:24 it almost seemed like no more could be done.
00:07:27 Like we’ve solved all the problems that are to be solved.
00:07:30 And there’s just historically,
00:07:32 there’s all these kind of ridiculous
00:07:34 like Bill Gates style quotes,
00:07:35 or like it’s obvious that this new cool thing
00:07:40 is not gonna take off and yet it does.
00:07:43 And so there’s a feeling of the same kind of pattern
00:07:47 that we see in Moore’s law.
00:07:48 There’s constant growth in different technologies
00:07:51 in the modern day era in any kind of automation
00:07:54 over the past hundred years.
00:07:55 Do you think it’s possible that we’ll keep growing this way
00:07:58 if we give power to the philosophers of our society?
00:08:02 I think the only way that we can keep growing this way
00:08:05 is if we give power to real thinkers.
00:08:09 And there’s no guarantee that that will work,
00:08:11 but we sort of don’t have any other choice.
00:08:13 And I think you’re entirely right
00:08:15 that this period of both understanding the universe
00:08:20 at a rate which has never been seen before
00:08:25 and invention and creativity,
00:08:29 that these past hundred years
00:08:31 have been sort of uncharacteristic
00:08:34 for the level of growth that we’ve seen in all of history.
00:08:38 We’ve never seen anything like this.
00:08:41 And I think a lot of our promises rest on this sort of thing
00:08:50 continuing.
00:08:51 I think that’s very dangerous.
00:08:53 But the one thing that can get us out of this is philosophy
00:08:57 and being ready to radically restructure
00:09:01 all of our notions about what should be, what is.
00:09:05 I think that’s very important.
00:09:06 So you think deeply about this world.
00:09:08 You are clearly the embodiment of a thinker, of a philosopher.
00:09:12 Your dad is also one such guy, Eric Weinstein.
00:09:16 Do you have big disagreements with him
00:09:20 on this topic in particular?
00:09:21 I think, now people should know,
00:09:23 he also happens to be in the room,
00:09:25 but the mics can’t pick him up so he can heckle.
00:09:29 It doesn’t even matter.
00:09:32 But do you have disagreements with him on this point?
00:09:34 Let me try to summarize his argument
00:09:37 that we are actually based a lot of our American society
00:09:42 on the belief that things will keep growing.
00:09:45 And yet it seems that however you break it apart,
00:09:50 maybe from an economics perspective,
00:09:52 that they’re not growing currently.
00:09:55 And so that’s where a lot of our troubles are at.
00:09:57 Do you have the same sense that there’s a stagnation period
00:10:00 that we’re living through over the past couple of decades?
00:10:03 I think stagnation, modern stagnation is completely
00:10:07 undeniable, particularly scientifically.
00:10:11 And I think there have been a few fields
00:10:13 where tremendous progress has been made very recently.
00:10:17 I think my dad might feel that
00:10:24 there is sort of an inevitability
00:10:26 to the ending of this period.
00:10:29 And I’m not so certain that the fall of this great time
00:10:36 is completely inevitable because I don’t know
00:10:39 what thoughts we’re capable of producing,
00:10:42 what we’re able to reconsider.
00:10:45 I think we really have to be open to the possibility
00:10:49 that all of our standard frameworks where,
00:10:53 like he will talk about embedded growth obligations.
00:10:57 If we continue within the same framework,
00:11:00 then we’re very susceptible to the dangers
00:11:02 of whatever these embedded growth obligations are.
00:11:05 I think if we break the frameworks,
00:11:06 we have no reason to believe that the problems
00:11:09 we’re experiencing with our current frameworks
00:11:11 will follow us.
00:11:13 And I think that’s the importance of radical thought
00:11:15 is we don’t know what the solution is,
00:11:17 but if there is a solution,
00:11:19 it will be born from some very fundamental thinking.
00:11:22 And so I have great hope.
00:11:24 So you have optimism about sort of the power
00:11:27 of a single radical idea or a single radical thinker
00:11:31 to break our frameworks and break us out of this,
00:11:36 like, spiral down due to whatever the economic forces
00:11:41 that are creating this current stagnation.
00:11:45 Yeah, I’m very, very hopeful.
00:11:47 The optimism of youth.
00:11:48 Well, I share your optimism.
00:11:52 So let me come back to something you’ve also talked about.
00:11:56 You have very little stuff out there currently,
00:11:59 but the things you have out there, your thoughts,
00:12:02 you could just tell how deeply you think about this world.
00:12:05 And one of the things you mentioned is
00:12:07 as you learn about this world, as you read,
00:12:12 as you sort of go through different experiences,
00:12:16 that you’re open to changing your mind.
00:12:20 How often do you find yourself changing your mind?
00:12:23 Do you think Zev from 10 years into the future
00:12:26 will look back at this conversation we’re having now
00:12:29 and disagree completely with everything you just said?
00:12:33 It’s entirely possible.
00:12:34 And that’s one of the things that scares me so much
00:12:36 about appearing publicly.
00:12:39 I think that the internet can be very intolerant
00:12:43 of inconsistency.
00:12:44 And I am entirely prepared to be very inconsistent
00:12:49 because I know that whatever beliefs I have
00:12:54 when subjected to scrutiny may change
00:12:56 because that’s really the only way
00:12:59 to form your truest, most fundamental conceptions
00:13:04 about the world around you.
00:13:06 And it would take an infinite amount of time
00:13:09 to subject every single one of your beliefs to scrutiny.
00:13:12 And so that’s a process that must follow me
00:13:16 throughout my entire life.
00:13:18 And I know that means that my opinions and perspectives
00:13:23 are always to be changing.
00:13:28 I’m prepared to accept that about myself.
00:13:31 Whether other people are prepared to accept
00:13:34 that my public opinions may change
00:13:42 and vary greatly over time is something I don’t know.
00:13:45 I don’t know how tolerant the world will be,
00:13:48 but I’m very prepared to change anything I believe in
00:13:53 if I think deeply enough about it
00:13:55 or a good enough argument is made so that I might reconsider.
00:13:59 Well, there certainly is currently an intolerance
00:14:02 and that’s one of the problems of our age.
00:14:04 There’s an intolerance towards change.
00:14:06 And I’ll also ask you about labels.
00:14:08 You talked about sort of we like to bin each other
00:14:11 into different categories, the blue or red
00:14:14 or whatever the different categorization is.
00:14:16 But it seems like the task before you
00:14:20 as a young person defining our future
00:14:23 is to make a tolerance of change the norm.
00:14:28 Doing this podcast, for example,
00:14:30 and then changing your mind one or two years later
00:14:33 and doing so publicly without a big dramatic thing
00:14:36 or maybe changing it on a daily basis
00:14:39 and just being open about it and being transparent
00:14:42 about your thought process.
00:14:43 Maybe that is the beacon of hope for the philosophical way,
00:14:49 the path of the philosopher.
00:14:52 So that’s your task in a sense
00:14:55 is to change your mind openly and bravely.
00:14:58 You know, you’re right.
00:14:59 And maybe I will just have to endure some sort of criticism
00:15:03 for doing that, but I think that’s very important.
00:15:05 I think this ties back to this previous facet
00:15:08 of our conversation where we were discussing
00:15:11 if thinkers would win over systems
00:15:15 that are devoted to preventing radical thought
00:15:19 or if who will win the systems or the thinkers.
00:15:25 I think it’s crucial that my generation
00:15:31 take up a hand in this fight.
00:15:34 And I think it’s important that I’m a part of that
00:15:37 because I know that I have some opportunity
00:15:40 to, there is, I think it is my obligation
00:15:47 as a member of a generation whose only real hope
00:15:50 is to think outside of a system
00:15:53 because whatever systems exist are collapsing.
00:15:57 I think it is really my obligation
00:15:59 to try to play some role, whatever role I can
00:16:02 and being an instrument in that change.
00:16:06 Are you, as a young mind, do you have a sense of fear
00:16:11 about just like how afraid were you
00:16:13 to do this podcast conversation?
00:16:15 Do you have a sense of fear of thinking publicly?
00:16:19 Yeah, I don’t even think that that fear is irrational.
00:16:23 It’s very difficult to exist publicly in any form now
00:16:28 because it’s very easy for anyone to take cheap shots
00:16:33 at something which is difficult and as I said,
00:16:39 the people who are trying to have the difficult ideas
00:16:43 and conversations are perhaps putting others
00:16:47 in actual danger because everyone is so desperate
00:16:51 that they might be willing to try anything.
00:16:55 So there’s a certain amount of responsibility
00:16:59 which one has to take going before the public
00:17:03 and there is a certain amount of ridicule
00:17:07 which will be completely unwarranted
00:17:10 that anyone must endure for it.
00:17:15 And I think that means that one has to be afraid
00:17:20 because they could both ruin the world
00:17:22 and be ruined by the world
00:17:23 in an unwarranted and undeserved fashion.
00:17:31 I would like to believe in myself enough
00:17:34 to try to accept this as a task
00:17:35 because I think people need to try
00:17:39 or there’s no getting out of this
00:17:41 and we will end in some kind of crazy, brilliant war.
00:17:44 Awfully put.
00:17:45 You’ve said also that in these times we can’t have labels
00:17:48 because it holds us back.
00:17:51 Maybe we’ve already talked about it a little bit
00:17:53 but this idea of labels is really interesting.
00:17:56 Why do you think labels hold us back?
00:17:59 Well, I think many underestimate the extent
00:18:04 to which language and communication really impacts
00:18:09 and shapes the ideas and thoughts
00:18:12 which are being communicated.
00:18:14 And I think if we’re willing to accept imperfect labels
00:18:19 to categorize particular people or thoughts,
00:18:23 in some sense, we are corrupting an abstraction
00:18:27 in order to represent it and communicate about it.
00:18:30 And I think as we’ve discussed,
00:18:33 those abstractions are particularly important
00:18:36 when everything is on fire.
00:18:41 We should not be sacrificing grand thoughts
00:18:46 for the ability to express it.
00:18:49 I think everyone should work much harder,
00:18:53 including myself, to really be thinking abstractly
00:18:56 in abstract terms instead of using concrete terms
00:19:00 to discuss abstraction while ruining it slightly.
00:19:04 Yeah, it’s kind of a skill actually.
00:19:07 So one really difficult example in the recent time
00:19:12 that maybe you can comment on if you have been thinking
00:19:21 about it is just politics.
00:19:23 And there’s a lot of labels in politics
00:19:25 that it takes a lot of skill to be able
00:19:29 to communicate difficult ideas
00:19:31 without labels being attached to you.
00:19:34 That’s something that I’ve been sort of thinking about a lot
00:19:37 in trying to express, for example,
00:19:40 how much I love various aspects of the foundational ideas
00:19:44 of this country, like freedom,
00:19:46 and just saying, I love America, a simple statement.
00:19:50 I love the ideas that we’re finding to America.
00:19:53 Well, often in the current time,
00:19:55 well, people will try, they desperately try
00:19:57 to attach a label to me, for example,
00:20:00 for saying I love America, that I’m a Republican,
00:20:03 a Donald Trump supporter, and it takes elegance
00:20:07 and grace and skill to avoid those labels
00:20:12 so that people can actually listen
00:20:13 to the contents of your words
00:20:15 versus the summarization that results
00:20:20 from just the labels that they can pin on you.
00:20:24 Are you cognizant of the skill required there
00:20:27 of being able to communicate
00:20:28 without being branded a Republican or a Democrat
00:20:31 in this particular set of conversations?
00:20:34 I’m sure there’s other dangerous labels
00:20:35 that could be attached.
00:20:38 I don’t think there’s any way of avoiding that right now.
00:20:42 It might not be anyone’s best effort to really try.
00:20:47 I think the thing I can say, which will most speak to that,
00:20:52 which I truly believe, is that participating
00:20:57 in modern conventional politics
00:21:01 is not being inherently political
00:21:04 in a generative sense.
00:21:06 It’s this repeated trope where politics now
00:21:11 is not about creating new political ideologies.
00:21:14 It’s about defending ideologies which already exist
00:21:17 so that everyone can keep what they have.
00:21:20 And that’s where all of the name calling
00:21:23 and the labeling really comes in.
00:21:26 It’s an attempt to constrict whatever may be generated
00:21:31 to standard conversations and discussions
00:21:37 so that arguments can be straw manned and defeated
00:21:42 and people can keep what they have
00:21:43 because everyone’s very, very scared.
00:21:48 I want to be very political,
00:21:51 but not in a standard political sense
00:21:54 where I’m defending a particular party
00:21:57 or place on a spectrum.
00:22:00 I would like to play some role in inventing new spectrums
00:22:04 and I think that’s most important politically
00:22:07 because above most else, politics is about real power
00:22:13 and conventional politicians have real power
00:22:17 and that power will find terrible outlets
00:22:21 if new spectrums for that power to live are not invented.
00:22:26 So you’re not afraid of politics.
00:22:28 You’re afraid of political discourse at the deepest,
00:22:30 richest level of what political discourse is supposed to mean.
00:22:35 Actually, I’m very afraid of it, but once again, we have no.
00:22:39 That’s not paralyzing for you.
00:22:41 You feel like it’s a responsibility,
00:22:42 you’re ready to take it on.
00:22:43 Yes.
00:22:44 This is a good sign.
00:22:46 This is, you’re a special human.
00:22:48 Okay, let’s talk maybe fun, maybe profound.
00:22:52 We talked about philosophers, philosophy.
00:22:55 Who’s your favorite philosopher?
00:22:57 Like somebody in your current time but neither influential
00:23:01 or you just enjoy his, her ideas
00:23:06 or writing or anything like that?
00:23:08 Weirdly, I’ll give an answer
00:23:11 which sort of doesn’t have much to do
00:23:14 with whom I might imagine myself to be.
00:23:18 I like Thomas Aquinas at the moment.
00:23:21 I think he’s very inspirational to me
00:23:24 given what we’re going through
00:23:26 and that’s not because his particular ideas
00:23:30 of religion or God or unmoved movers
00:23:35 are particularly inspirational to me
00:23:40 and I don’t even think they were necessarily right.
00:23:45 But he was introducing aspects of the scientific method
00:23:52 during one of the darkest periods in human history
00:23:55 when we had lost all hope and reason
00:23:57 and ability to think logically.
00:24:01 So I think he was really something of a light in the dark
00:24:06 and I think we need to look to people like that
00:24:09 at the moment.
00:24:10 The other reason why I think I need to learn from him
00:24:15 is that even though he was doing something
00:24:18 which really needed to be done
00:24:20 and introducing scientific thought and reason
00:24:25 to a time that lacked it,
00:24:30 he was not saying anything that would have been offensive
00:24:35 to whatever powers were in play during his time.
00:24:39 He was writing about the importance of faith in God
00:24:43 and how we could prove it.
00:24:45 And so it’s important to remember, I suppose,
00:24:49 that having ideas that shape the world
00:24:55 and which bring the world closer to what we can prove
00:24:58 it’s supposed to be and how it’s supposed to work
00:25:01 does not always take some sort of grand contradiction
00:25:04 of whatever’s in play.
00:25:06 And the most courageous thing to do
00:25:09 may not always be the most helpful thing to do.
00:25:13 And I think it’s very easy for anyone with ideas
00:25:18 about how everything is broken to become very cynical
00:25:23 and say, oh, the system, man, they’re all wrong.
00:25:27 I think it takes another kind of discipline
00:25:32 to be a person with real ideas
00:25:35 and to make the world better
00:25:38 without stepping on anyone’s toes or contradicting anyone.
00:25:41 I have real respect for that.
00:25:43 So being able to be,
00:25:44 when it’s within your principles to operate,
00:25:46 within the current system of thought.
00:25:48 Yeah, and not offend anyone, not say anything outlandish,
00:25:54 but introduce the method
00:25:57 by which progress must be achieved.
00:26:00 I think that takes a kind of maturity,
00:26:03 which is found very rarely now.
00:26:07 And I really look to him for inspiration
00:26:10 despite whatever disagreements I may have
00:26:13 with the minute details of his philosophy.
00:26:16 Yeah, it takes a lot of skill, a lot of character,
00:26:20 and yeah, deep thinking to be able to operate
00:26:23 within the system when needed
00:26:25 and having the fortitude and just the boldness
00:26:29 to step outside and to burn the system down when needed,
00:26:33 but rarely, and opportune moments
00:26:36 that would actually have impact.
00:26:38 I mean, it’s ultimately about impact
00:26:40 within the society that you live in,
00:26:42 not just making a statement that has no impact.
00:26:46 Yeah, and we were talking about how dangerous it is
00:26:50 to do real philosophy at dangerous broken times.
00:26:55 He was going through the most broken time in history
00:26:59 and he questioned the methods
00:27:05 which made a broken system able to survive.
00:27:10 And he was so skilled and so graceful
00:27:12 that he became a saint in that tradition.
00:27:15 And there’s something for me to really learn from there.
00:27:19 Do you draw any inspiration,
00:27:20 have any interest in the sort of more modern philosophers,
00:27:23 maybe the existentialists?
00:27:25 I mean, Nietzsche is one of the early ones.
00:27:27 Do you have thoughts on the guy in general
00:27:31 or any of the other existentialists?
00:27:34 Well, with regard to Nietzsche,
00:27:36 I think Yates might’ve said that he’s the worst.
00:27:40 He was certainly filled with passionate intensity.
00:27:46 I think…
00:27:47 Was that a compliment?
00:27:48 He was the worst or a criticism or both?
00:27:52 Yates had this big line,
00:27:53 that the best lack all conviction,
00:27:55 the worst are filled with passionate intensity.
00:27:59 So I think Nietzsche was destroyed
00:28:04 by the horrors of everything that went on around him.
00:28:10 And I think he never really recovered from it.
00:28:14 I think that’s because if you think about Nietzsche’s
00:28:20 philosophy, he was very opposed to any sort of acceptance
00:28:25 of what one had.
00:28:26 One should always envy those who have more
00:28:29 and use that envy to fuel their ideas.
00:28:33 To fuel their growth and accept whatever
00:28:39 the human condition and desires are
00:28:42 and use those desires to want more and more
00:28:46 and make use of your greed.
00:28:49 I think it’s very difficult to be truly happy
00:28:54 if the thing which you pride yourself most on
00:29:03 is never being satisfied.
00:29:07 And I think Nietzsche was never satisfied
00:29:09 and that was the danger of his philosophy.
00:29:12 I think also with his amoralism,
00:29:15 there is no good or evil.
00:29:18 I sort of disagree with that on a pretty fundamental basis.
00:29:22 I think that our notion of morality
00:29:27 is by no means subjective.
00:29:29 It’s really the proxy for the fitness of a society.
00:29:35 I think whatever we consider ethical,
00:29:39 like don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t do this,
00:29:44 societies have a very difficult time running.
00:29:47 It’s very hard to run a civilization
00:29:48 when everyone is stealing from everyone else
00:29:51 and people are murdering each other
00:29:54 and committing these things,
00:29:56 which we would consider atrocities.
00:30:00 So I think we also, we know this
00:30:03 because I think very similar notions of morality
00:30:07 have evolved convergently from different traditions.
00:30:12 I think good is a proxy for a civilization’s fitness
00:30:17 and the good news is that that means that evil
00:30:24 in being anathema to that good
00:30:27 must therefore be the opposite of stable
00:30:33 in whatever way that it’s evil.
00:30:34 And that means that good will always be more stable
00:30:37 than evil and the only way evil can really win
00:30:41 is like if everyone dies.
00:30:43 So I think that’s a good thing.
00:30:46 Everyone dies, so.
00:30:49 So wait, can you say that again?
00:30:51 Good is a proxy for society’s what?
00:30:54 Good is a proxy for the stability
00:30:56 and fitness of a civilization and evil.
00:30:59 Damn, that’s a good definition.
00:31:01 Thank you.
00:31:01 So you’re throwing some bombs today.
00:31:02 Okay, all right.
00:31:06 Okay, this is exciting.
00:31:08 Sorry, sorry to interrupt your flow there,
00:31:11 but it’s just a damn good line.
00:31:12 Thank you.
00:31:13 Yeah.
00:31:15 So in that sense, that’s a kind of optimistic view
00:31:18 that if by definition good is a proxy for stability,
00:31:21 then it’s going to be stable
00:31:22 unless the entire world just blows itself up.
00:31:25 So good wins in the end by definition.
00:31:28 Yeah.
00:31:29 Or no, well, good wins unless it all goes
00:31:35 to complete destruction.
00:31:39 That’s beautifully put.
00:31:40 Thank you.
00:31:41 On a topic of sort of good and evil being human illusions,
00:31:49 you’ve said that more broadly than that about truth,
00:31:53 that it is easier in some ways to be unified under truth
00:31:56 because it is universal than it is to be unified
00:31:59 under belief, which at times can be completely subjective.
00:32:02 So what is the nature of truth to you?
00:32:06 Can we understand the world objectively
00:32:09 or is most of what we can understand about the world
00:32:12 is just a subjective opinions
00:32:16 that we kind of all agree on in these little collectives
00:32:20 and over time it kind of evolves completely detached
00:32:25 from objective reality.
00:32:26 I think this is the greatest argument for objectivity
00:32:32 is that something that is objectively true
00:32:35 cannot be true to me and untrue to you.
00:32:40 You can feel that it’s untrue,
00:32:42 but that would be unproductive
00:32:45 and create unnecessary tension and conflict.
00:32:50 I think this is one reason for the importance of science
00:32:55 as a tool for stability.
00:32:58 If science is the search for truth and truth can never really be,
00:33:07 I shouldn’t say that,
00:33:08 truth should never be an engine of conflict
00:33:12 because no two people should disagree on something
00:33:15 which is objectively true,
00:33:18 then in some sense, search for truth is searching
00:33:22 for a common ground where we can all exist
00:33:27 and live without contradicting or attacking each other.
00:33:32 Do you have a hope that there is a lot of common ground
00:33:34 to be discovered?
00:33:36 Sure, I mean, if we continue scientifically,
00:33:41 we are discovering truth
00:33:42 and in that discovering common ground
00:33:45 on which we can all agree.
00:33:46 That’s one reason why I think caring about science,
00:33:51 if you have a culture which cares very deeply about science,
00:33:54 that’s a culture which is not necessarily bound
00:33:59 to injure unwarranted internal conflict.
00:34:04 I think that’s one reason that I’m so passionate
00:34:06 about science is it’s search for universal ground.
00:34:09 Let me just throw out an example
00:34:11 of a modern day philosophical thinker.
00:34:14 We’ll keep your dad, Eric Weinstein out of the picture
00:34:17 for a sec, but he does happen to be an example of one,
00:34:21 but Jordan Peterson is an example of another,
00:34:23 somebody who thinks deeply about this world.
00:34:26 His ideas are by a certain percent of the population,
00:34:30 sort of speaking of truth, are labeled as dangerous.
00:34:34 Why do you think his ideas
00:34:36 or just ideas of these kinds of deep thinkers in general
00:34:40 are labeled as dangerous in our modern world?
00:34:43 Is it similar to what you’ve been discussing
00:34:46 that in difficult times, philosophers become dangerous?
00:34:50 Or is there something specific
00:34:52 about these particular thinkers in our time?
00:34:54 Well, I think Jordan Peterson is very anti establishment
00:34:58 in a lot of his beliefs.
00:35:01 He’s an unconventional thinker.
00:35:03 And I think we need, regardless of whatever
00:35:10 Jordan’s particular views and beliefs are,
00:35:13 and if they bring about more danger than truth,
00:35:18 or if they don’t, it’s very important
00:35:21 to have fundamental thinkers
00:35:24 who exist outside of a conventional framework.
00:35:28 So do I think that he’s dangerous?
00:35:33 I think by existing outside of a system which is known,
00:35:40 he is dangerous.
00:35:41 And I think we have to, in some sense,
00:35:45 in some sense, we have to welcome danger in that capacity
00:35:50 because it will be our only way out of this.
00:35:53 So regardless of whether his beliefs are right or wrong,
00:36:03 I’m pretty adamant about the fact
00:36:06 that we need to support thought which may rescue us.
00:36:11 And that thought can appear radical or dangerous at times.
00:36:16 But ultimately, if you allow for it,
00:36:20 this is kind of the difficult discussion of free speech
00:36:22 and so on, is ultimately difficult ideas
00:36:27 will pave the way for progress.
00:36:30 Yeah, and I’d actually, I’d like to slow you down there
00:36:34 because I think like one of the issues
00:36:37 we were discussing previously was the fact
00:36:40 that language often destroys our ability to think.
00:36:48 When we’re talking about whether his ideas are radical,
00:36:52 I don’t know if we mean radical in the traditional sense
00:36:55 of having to do with the root of a problem
00:37:00 or in the more modern sense of being very extreme.
00:37:05 And I think that’s completely by design,
00:37:09 I think fundamental thought,
00:37:13 which semantically would once be considered radical thought
00:37:18 became very dangerous.
00:37:20 And now it’s become synonymous with extreme
00:37:23 or dangerous thought, which means that anyone
00:37:26 who considers themselves a radical thinker
00:37:29 is semantically also a dangerous or extreme thinker.
00:37:36 These are not helpful labels in a sense
00:37:38 that the moment you say radical or extremist thinker,
00:37:42 then you’re just, well, how do I put it?
00:37:46 You’re not helping the public discourse, exchange of ideas.
00:37:52 But through no fault of our own,
00:37:54 the concept of radical as having to do with a root
00:37:58 is it’s an obvious concept for which there must be language
00:38:03 and a lot of the attack on thought has to do
00:38:06 with attacking language, which communicates conceptually.
00:38:12 So like this is an example of how our world
00:38:16 is becoming increasingly Orwellian.
00:38:18 It’s just language is being used to destroy
00:38:21 our ability to think.
00:38:23 I think I can’t remember exactly what the numbers are,
00:38:26 but I read some statistic about how greatly
00:38:28 the average English vocabulary has been used
00:38:32 and the vocabulary has decreased since 1960.
00:38:36 It was like some incredible number.
00:38:38 It really baffled me.
00:38:39 It’s like, how are people less able to think in a time
00:38:44 when the world is supposed to be growing
00:38:46 at a never before seen rate?
00:38:50 It’s like, we can’t keep on, we can’t sustain this growth
00:38:54 if we destroy everyone’s ability to think
00:38:58 because the growth requires thinking
00:39:00 and we’re ruining the tools for it.
00:39:05 I watched your podcast with Noam Chomsky
00:39:09 and I think one interesting thing which he discussed
00:39:14 was how language is more used to develop thoughts
00:39:18 within our own head than it is used to communicate
00:39:21 those thoughts with others.
00:39:24 If the language doesn’t change, even if its usage changes,
00:39:28 when language is destroyed in communication,
00:39:32 it also stymies our ability to think reasonably
00:39:38 and I’m very, very worried.
00:39:41 But the language in communication requires a medium
00:39:46 and there’s a lot of different mediums.
00:39:48 So there’s social media, there’s Twitter,
00:39:51 there’s writing books, there’s blog posts,
00:39:54 there’s podcasts, there’s YouTube videos,
00:40:00 all of things you have dipped a toe in
00:40:04 in your exploration of different mediums of communication.
00:40:08 Which do you see yourself, this might be just a poetic way
00:40:12 of asking are you gonna do a podcast,
00:40:14 but broader picture, what do you think as an intellectual
00:40:19 in this world for you personally
00:40:22 would be the path for communicating your ideas to the world?
00:40:26 What are the mediums you are currently drawn to
00:40:30 out of the ones I mentioned or maybe something I didn’t?
00:40:33 To answer your question concretely before abstractly,
00:40:39 I’m scared but I need to do a podcast.
00:40:42 It’s important, it is my obligation
00:40:45 as a member of my generation.
00:40:47 I really hope that more people my age start to do this
00:40:51 because we will be the people in charge of new ideas
00:40:56 which either sink or swim.
00:40:59 How upset will your dad be
00:41:01 when your podcast quickly becomes more popular than his?
00:41:04 I think he would be negatively upset.
00:41:07 I’ll say he’d be proud, he’s a good dad.
00:41:09 I really think so, yeah.
00:41:11 Sorry to interrupt.
00:41:13 Yeah, so but then zooming out, do you think podcasts,
00:41:17 are you excited by the possibility
00:41:20 of other mediums outside of podcasting to communicate ideas?
00:41:24 I would be if people still read books
00:41:27 or did things like that.
00:41:30 I’m somewhat guilty of this.
00:41:33 A lot of the books I read are very technical
00:41:38 and then my, to absorb like really deep modern conversations
00:41:43 I listen to podcasts and I don’t really read many books
00:41:52 on like the matters that we’re discussing, for example.
00:41:55 It’s fascinating because you’re making me think
00:41:57 of something that I align with you very much
00:42:00 of how I consume deep thinkers currently.
00:42:03 So what happens is somebody who thinks deeply
00:42:05 about the world will write a book, Jordan Peterson example,
00:42:10 and instead of reading their book,
00:42:12 I’ll just listen to podcast conversations
00:42:14 of them talking about the book, which I find to,
00:42:19 this is really sad, but I find that to be
00:42:22 a more compelling way to think about their ideas
00:42:25 because they’re often challenged in certain ways
00:42:28 in those conversations and they’re forced to,
00:42:31 after having boiled them down and really thought
00:42:34 through them enough to write a book.
00:42:36 So it’s almost like they needed to go through the process
00:42:38 of writing a book just so they could think through,
00:42:41 convert the language in their minds
00:42:43 into something more concrete,
00:42:44 and then the actual exchange of ideas,
00:42:47 the actual communication of ideas with the public happens
00:42:49 not with the book, but after the book,
00:42:52 with that person going on a book tour
00:42:56 and communicating the ideas.
00:42:58 Well, there are two meanings I make
00:43:00 of why not too many people spend much
00:43:03 of their time reading anymore.
00:43:05 One interpretation is that we’ve lost our attention spans
00:43:10 to our phones, people can’t concentrate on a page
00:43:13 if it takes them a minute to read,
00:43:15 we’re too busy watching TikToks or whatever people do.
00:43:20 The other interpretation would be that language
00:43:24 and verbal communication has,
00:43:28 as well as some amount of communication,
00:43:31 which is done through facial expression,
00:43:33 tone of voice, et cetera.
00:43:35 These are means of communication
00:43:38 that have evolved along with humanity
00:43:42 over thousands and thousands of years.
00:43:44 So we know that we are built to communicate in this way.
00:43:51 We have had writing for much less time.
00:43:57 It is a system that we invented,
00:43:59 not a system which evolved and is innately part
00:44:04 of humanity or the human mind.
00:44:11 And so we are designed to consume conversation
00:44:16 by our own evolution.
00:44:18 We are designed to consume writing
00:44:24 by some process of symbols
00:44:26 that’s evolved over a couple of thousand years.
00:44:28 It makes sense to me why many are much more compelled
00:44:35 to listen to podcasts, for example,
00:44:38 than they are to read books.
00:44:41 It could be that this is simply a technological progression
00:44:47 which has displaced reading conventionally
00:44:52 instead of some sort of maladaptation of our minds,
00:44:57 which has corrupted our attention spans.
00:45:01 Likely there’s some combination
00:45:03 which determines why people spend much less time reading.
00:45:07 But I don’t think it’s necessarily because we’re all broken.
00:45:10 It may simply have to do with the fact
00:45:12 that we are designed to listen through our ears
00:45:16 and speak through our mouths.
00:45:17 And we are not innately designed to communicate over a page.
00:45:25 Yeah, there’s an exciting coupling to me
00:45:26 between like few second TikTok videos
00:45:30 that are fun and addicting,
00:45:32 and then the three, four hour podcasts,
00:45:34 which are both really popular in our current time.
00:45:39 So people are both hungry for the visual stimulation
00:45:42 of internet humor and memes.
00:45:45 I’m a huge fan of, and also slow moving deep conversations.
00:45:53 And that might, you know, there’s a lot of,
00:45:56 I mean, it’s part of your generation
00:45:57 to define what that looks like moving forward.
00:45:59 There were a lot of people, like Joe Rogan’s
00:46:02 one of the people that kind of started,
00:46:05 accidentally stumbled into the discovery
00:46:08 that this is like a thing.
00:46:10 And now people are kind of scrambling to figure out
00:46:13 why is this a thing?
00:46:15 Like, why is there so much hunger
00:46:16 for long form conversations?
00:46:18 And how do we optimize that medium
00:46:21 for further, further expression of deep ideas
00:46:23 and all that kind of stuff.
00:46:24 And YouTube is a really interesting medium
00:46:27 for that as well.
00:46:28 Like video, sharing of videos,
00:46:31 mostly YouTube is used with a spirit of like
00:46:35 the TikTok spirit, if I can put it in that way,
00:46:37 which is like, how do I have quick moving things
00:46:41 that even if you’re expressing difficult ideas,
00:46:43 they should be quick and exciting and visual and switching.
00:46:46 But there’s a lot of exploration there
00:46:48 to see what can we do something deeper
00:46:50 and nobody knows.
00:46:52 And you’re part of the, you have a YouTube channel
00:46:56 releasing one video every few years.
00:47:00 So, so your momentum is currently quite slow,
00:47:03 but perhaps it’ll accelerate.
00:47:05 You’re one of the people that gets to define that medium.
00:47:08 Is that, do you enjoy that, the visual YouTube medium
00:47:12 of communication as well?
00:47:14 I know that when the topic of conversation
00:47:21 or the means by which a conversation is communicated
00:47:26 or an idea is communicated,
00:47:28 if that is sufficiently interesting to me,
00:47:34 I will read a book on it.
00:47:35 I would listen to a podcast on it.
00:47:37 I would watch a video on it.
00:47:40 I think if I’m very curious about something,
00:47:43 I will consume it however possible.
00:47:46 I think when I have to consume things
00:47:48 which really don’t interest me very much,
00:47:52 I’m indeed much more ready to consume them
00:47:55 through some sort of video or discussion
00:47:57 than I am through like a long tedious book.
00:48:01 So for the breadth of acquiring knowledge,
00:48:05 video is good.
00:48:06 For the depth, the medium doesn’t matter.
00:48:11 I think it’d be fun to ask you about
00:48:12 some big philosophical questions
00:48:16 to see if you have an opinion on them.
00:48:17 Do you think there’s a free will
00:48:21 or is free will just an illusion?
00:48:24 Well, I think classical mechanics would tell us
00:48:28 that if we were to know every piece of information
00:48:33 about a system and understand the rules
00:48:36 which govern that system,
00:48:38 we would be completely able to predict the future
00:48:42 with complete accuracy.
00:48:44 So if something could know everything about our lives,
00:48:50 it could freeze time and understand the position
00:48:53 of every neuron in my mind about to fire,
00:48:58 no decision could be unpredictable.
00:49:02 In some sense, there is that sort of fate.
00:49:07 I think that doesn’t make the decisions we make illegitimate
00:49:11 even if some grand supercomputer could
00:49:16 understand what decisions we would make beforehand
00:49:19 with complete certainty.
00:49:21 I think we’re making legitimate systems
00:49:24 within a system that has no freedom.
00:49:27 We’re making legitimate systems
00:49:29 within a system that has no freedom.
00:49:30 Can you explain what you mean by that?
00:49:33 Yeah, so if we were to have just a simple pendulum
00:49:40 and I told you how long the rope was,
00:49:44 we froze it at a particular point
00:49:47 and I told you how high above the ground the weight was
00:49:52 and the motion of a pendulum is something
00:49:57 which is easy for everyone to imagine, I could,
00:50:03 if we had all of that information,
00:50:04 you could ask me what will the pendulum do
00:50:08 six and a half minutes from now?
00:50:10 And we would have a precise answer.
00:50:12 That’s an example of a very simple system
00:50:16 with a very simple Lagrangian.
00:50:19 And we could completely predict the future.
00:50:23 The pendulum has no ability to do anything
00:50:26 that would surprise us.
00:50:28 Weirdly, that’s true of whatever this four dimensional,
00:50:35 crazy world we live in looks like if we were to understand
00:50:41 where every piece of this system was at any given time
00:50:44 and we understand the laws of motion,
00:50:47 how everything worked,
00:50:49 if we could compute all of that information somehow,
00:50:52 which we will never be able to do,
00:50:55 we would, every decision you will ever make
00:51:00 could be predicted by that computer.
00:51:03 That doesn’t mean that your decisions are illegitimate.
00:51:05 You are really making those decisions,
00:51:08 but with a completely predictable outcome.
00:51:10 So I’m just sort of a little bit high at the moment
00:51:14 on the poetry of a system within a system
00:51:19 that has no freedom.
00:51:21 So the human experience is the system we’ve created.
00:51:25 Within the system that has no freedom,
00:51:27 but that system that we’ve created
00:51:30 has a feeling of freedom that, to us,
00:51:35 ants feels as much more real than the physics,
00:51:44 as we understand it, of the underlying base system.
00:51:48 So it’s almost like not important
00:51:51 what the physics of the base system is,
00:51:53 that for what we’ve created,
00:51:56 the nature of the human experience is there is a free will.
00:52:02 Or there is something that feels close enough to a free will
00:52:06 that it may not be worth spending too much time
00:52:14 on the fact that it’s something of an illusion.
00:52:16 We will never build a computer that knows everything
00:52:19 about every piece of the universe at a given time.
00:52:23 And so for all intensive purposes,
00:52:26 our decisions are up to us.
00:52:28 We just happen to know that their outcomes
00:52:30 could be predicted with enough information.
00:52:33 So speaking of supercomputers,
00:52:36 they can predict every single thing
00:52:37 about what’s going to ever happen.
00:52:41 What do you think about the philosophical thought experiment
00:52:46 of us living in a simulation?
00:52:48 Do you often find yourself pondering
00:52:52 of us living in a simulation of this question?
00:52:54 Do you think it is at all a useful thought experiment?
00:52:57 I think it’s very easy to become fascinated
00:53:02 with all of these possibilities,
00:53:03 and they’re completely legitimate possibilities.
00:53:10 Is there some validity to solipsism?
00:53:15 Well, it can never be falsified or disproven.
00:53:18 So, I mean, sure, you could be a figment of my imagination.
00:53:24 It doesn’t mean that I will act according
00:53:27 to this possibility.
00:53:28 I’m not gonna call you mean names.
00:53:30 And just to test the system,
00:53:34 to see how robust it is to distortions.
00:53:37 Yeah, so, I mean, all of these existential
00:53:40 thought experiments are completely possible.
00:53:42 We could be brains in jars.
00:53:45 It doesn’t mean that our experience will feel any less valid.
00:53:51 And so it doesn’t make a difference to me
00:53:53 if you are some number of ones and zeros,
00:53:59 or you are a figment of my imagination,
00:54:02 which lives in a stored away brain.
00:54:06 It will never really change my experience
00:54:10 knowing that that’s a possibility.
00:54:12 And so I try to avoid making decisions
00:54:19 based on such contemplations.
00:54:21 If we take this previous issue of free will,
00:54:27 I could decide that because I have no choice in my life,
00:54:34 if I lie around in bed all day and eat chips,
00:54:39 I was destined to do that thing.
00:54:41 And if I make that decision, then I was destined
00:54:43 to do that thing.
00:54:44 It would be a really poor decision for me to make.
00:54:47 I have school and a dozen commitments.
00:54:51 There’s somebody listening to this right now,
00:54:53 probably hundreds of people sitting down,
00:54:56 eating chips and feeling terrible about them.
00:54:59 So how dare you, sir?
00:55:00 If they’re listening to this,
00:55:02 they’re clearly curious about possibilities of thought.
00:55:07 It’s not the bed and the chips that makes the man.
00:55:10 It’s not the bed or the chips that makes the man.
00:55:13 Yet another quotable from Zev Weinstein.
00:55:16 Okay.
00:55:18 But you don’t think of it as a useful thought experiment
00:55:21 from an engineering perspective of virtual reality,
00:55:26 of thinking how we can create
00:55:28 further and further immersive worlds.
00:55:30 Like would it be possible to create worlds
00:55:32 that are so immersive that we would rather live
00:55:35 in that world versus the real world?
00:55:38 I mean, that’s another possible trajectory
00:55:40 of the world that you’re growing up in
00:55:42 is we’re more and more immersing ourselves
00:55:47 into the digital world.
00:55:48 For now it’s screens and looking at the screens
00:55:51 and socializing on the screens.
00:55:52 But it’s possible to potentially create a world
00:55:55 that’s also visually for all of our human senses
00:55:58 as immersive as the physical world.
00:56:01 And then, you know, to me it’s an engineering question
00:56:06 of how difficult is it to create a world
00:56:08 that’s as immersive and more fun
00:56:11 than the world we currently live in.
00:56:14 It’s a terrifying concept and I hate to say it.
00:56:16 We might live happier lives in a virtual reality headset
00:56:20 30 years from now than we are currently living.
00:56:24 This future, the digital future, worries you.
00:56:28 It worries me.
00:56:29 On the other hand, it may be a better alternative
00:56:34 to fighting for whatever people are clinging onto
00:56:40 in our non virtual world or at least the world
00:56:44 that we don’t yet know is virtual.
00:56:47 So embrace the future.
00:56:49 We’ve been talking a lot about thinkers.
00:56:52 Now, in the broad definition of philosophy,
00:56:59 you kind of included innovators of all form.
00:57:03 Do you find it useful to draw a distinction
00:57:06 between thinkers and doers?
00:57:08 I think that the most important gift we’ve ever been given
00:57:13 is our ability to observe the universe
00:57:18 and think deductively about whatever principles,
00:57:21 transcend humanity.
00:57:23 Because as we discussed, that’s the closest thing
00:57:28 we will ever have to a universal experience
00:57:32 is understanding things, which must be true everywhere.
00:57:36 In order for that, so I think if we’re deciding
00:57:42 that life is meaningful and the human experience
00:57:46 is meaningful, you could make a very convincing argument
00:57:50 that its greatest meaning will be understanding
00:57:54 whatever transcends it.
00:57:58 I think that’s only sustainable if people are happy
00:58:05 and well fed and things of market value are invented.
00:58:14 And so I think we really need both to live meaningful
00:58:19 and successful and possible lives.
00:58:23 In terms of who my greatest heroes are,
00:58:28 I can’t decide between figures like Einstein
00:58:34 and Newton and Feynman, and on the other hand,
00:58:37 figures like Carey Mullis, for example.
00:58:43 I think people like Einstein make our lives meaningful
00:58:48 and people like Carey Mullis, who’s probably responsible
00:58:53 for saving hundreds of millions of lives,
00:58:55 make our lives possible and good.
00:59:02 So in terms of where I would like to find myself
00:59:10 with these two different notions of achievement,
00:59:14 I don’t know what I would more like to achieve.
00:59:18 I have an inclination that it will be something scientific
00:59:22 because I would like to bring meaning to humanity
00:59:25 instead of sustenance, but I think both are very important.
00:59:31 We can’t sustain our lives
00:59:33 if we don’t keep growing technologically.
00:59:36 I think people like you are making that possible
00:59:38 with computing because that’s one of the few things
00:59:42 that’s really moving forward in a clear sense.
00:59:49 I think about this a great deal.
00:59:53 So I think both are very important.
00:59:56 So one example that’s modern day inspiring figure
01:00:00 on the latter part, on the engineering part,
01:00:02 on the sustenance, is Elon Musk.
01:00:05 Does that somebody you draw inspiration from?
01:00:09 What are your thoughts in general about the kind
01:00:13 of unique spec of human that’s creating
01:00:18 so much inspiring innovation in this world so boldly?
01:00:25 I know that we will not survive without people like that.
01:00:32 Elon is a ridiculous and sensational example
01:00:36 of one of these figures.
01:00:39 I don’t know if he’s the best example or the worst example,
01:00:44 but he is of his own kind.
01:00:48 He is radically individualistic,
01:00:50 and those are the people who will allow us
01:00:54 to continue as humans.
01:00:57 I’m very happy that we have people like that in this world.
01:01:01 You said this thing about if we are to say
01:01:05 that life has meaning or life is meaningful,
01:01:10 then you could argue that it is a worthy pursuit
01:01:15 to transcend life.
01:01:18 Do you see that, another just, I’m gonna have to go back
01:01:25 and sleep on that one.
01:01:28 Do you draw some, speaking of Elon,
01:01:32 some inspiration of us transcending Earth,
01:01:40 of us moving outside of this particular planet
01:01:46 that we’ve called home for a long time
01:01:48 and colonizing other planets,
01:01:50 and perhaps one day expanding outside the solar system
01:01:53 and expanding, colonizing our galaxy and beyond?
01:01:58 Honestly, I know very little about space exploration.
01:02:01 I think it makes complete sense to me
01:02:05 why we are starting to think very seriously about it.
01:02:09 It’s an amazing and baffling and innovative solution
01:02:15 to a lot of problems we see as a world population.
01:02:21 I can’t really offer very much of interest on the topic.
01:02:26 I think when I’m talking about transcending humanity
01:02:31 and transcending Earth, I’m talking usually
01:02:37 about deriving truth, and that’s one of the things
01:02:41 that makes theoretical math and physics so interesting.
01:02:45 It’s like, I really, really love biology, for example,
01:02:50 but biology is a combination of whatever principles
01:02:57 ensure evolution and whatever weird coincidences
01:03:00 happened billions of years ago.
01:03:03 So do you think it’s more interesting to understand
01:03:05 the fundamental mechanisms of evolution, for example,
01:03:07 than it is the results, the messy results of its processes?
01:03:12 I can’t say which is more interesting.
01:03:14 I can say which I think is more deep.
01:03:17 I think theory and abstraction, which can be achieved
01:03:23 completely deductively, is deeper because it has nothing
01:03:28 to do with circumstance and everything to do
01:03:31 with logic and thought.
01:03:35 So, like, if we were ever to interact with aliens,
01:03:40 for example, we would not have our biology in common
01:03:46 if these were some sort of really intelligent life form.
01:03:52 We would have math and physics in common because the laws
01:03:58 of physics will be the same everywhere in the universe.
01:04:05 Our particular anatomy and biology pertains only to life
01:04:12 on this planet, and the principles may apply
01:04:15 more ubiquitously.
01:04:17 Do you ever think about aliens, like, what they might look like?
01:04:20 I try to, when I deal with thought experiments like these,
01:04:24 I try to keep a very abstract mindset,
01:04:29 and I notice that whenever I try to instantiate
01:04:35 these abstractions, I corrupt whatever thoughts there are
01:04:41 for which they’re useful.
01:04:42 So it’s kind of like the labels discussion.
01:04:45 So, like, the moment you try to make it concrete,
01:04:48 it’s probably going to look like some cute version
01:04:50 of a human, like, it’s the little green fellas
01:04:54 with the eyes and so on, or whatever.
01:04:56 Whatever the movies have instilled,
01:04:59 like, your cultural upbringing, you’re going to project
01:05:01 onto that and the assumptions you have.
01:05:04 That’s interesting.
01:05:05 So you prefer to sort of step away and think
01:05:07 and abstract notions of what it means to be intelligent,
01:05:10 what it means to be a living life form
01:05:12 and all that kind of stuff.
01:05:13 Mm hmm. I try to, I almost try to pretend I’m blind
01:05:17 and I’m deaf and I’m only a mind
01:05:22 with no inductive reasoning capacity
01:05:24 when I’m trying to think about thought experiments like these,
01:05:28 because I know that if I incorporate
01:05:33 whatever my eyes instruct my brain,
01:05:37 I will impede my ability to think as deeply as possible.
01:05:47 Because once again, it’s the thing which shallows our thought
01:05:50 can be the incorporation of circumstance and coincidence.
01:05:54 And for particular kinds of thought, that’s very important.
01:05:57 I’m not discounting the use of inductive reasoning
01:06:00 in many humanities and in many sciences,
01:06:03 but for the deepest of thoughts,
01:06:06 once again, I feel it’s important to try to transcend
01:06:09 whatever methods of observation characterize human experience.
01:06:14 See, but within that, that’s all really beautifully put.
01:06:17 I wonder if there is a common mathematics
01:06:22 and a common physics between us and alien beings,
01:06:26 we still have to make concrete the methods of communication.
01:06:31 Yeah.
01:06:32 And that’s a fascinating question of like,
01:06:34 while remaining in these abstract fundamental ideas,
01:06:37 how do we communicate with them?
01:06:39 I mean, I suppose that that question could be applied
01:06:41 to different cultures on earth,
01:06:45 but it’s finding a common language.
01:06:48 Do you think about that kind of problem
01:06:50 of basically communicating abstract fundamental ideas?
01:06:55 My least favorite aspect of math or physics
01:06:58 or any of these really deep sciences
01:07:01 is the symbolic component. You know, I’m dyslexic.
01:07:05 I don’t like looking at symbols.
01:07:08 They’re too often a source of ambiguity.
01:07:12 And I think you’re entirely right that if one thing
01:07:15 holds us back with communication
01:07:22 with something that behaves or looks nothing like us,
01:07:26 I think if one thing holds us back
01:07:29 it will be symbols and the communication of deep thought.
01:07:35 Because as I said, I think communication
01:07:38 frequently compromises thought by intention
01:07:41 or by just theoretical inadequacy.
01:07:46 So on this topic, actually,
01:07:47 it’d be fun to see what your thoughts are.
01:07:50 Do you think math is invented or discovered?
01:07:54 So you said that math, we might share many different things.
01:07:59 Some ideas of mathematics and physics with alien life forms.
01:08:04 So it’s uniform in some sense of uniform throughout the universe.
01:08:10 Do you think this thing that we call mathematics
01:08:15 is something that’s kind of fundamental to the world we live in
01:08:19 or is it just some kind of pretty axioms and theorems
01:08:24 we’ve come up with to try to describe
01:08:26 the patterns we see in the world?
01:08:28 I think it’s completely discovered
01:08:31 and completely fundamental to all experience.
01:08:35 I think the only component of mathematics
01:08:38 that has been invented is the expression of it.
01:08:41 And I think in some sense, there’s almost an arrogance
01:08:47 required to believe that whatever aspect we invent
01:08:55 having to do with math and physics and theory,
01:09:00 there is an arrogance required to truly believe
01:09:05 that that belongs on any sort of stage
01:09:07 with the actual beauty of the matters being discovered.
01:09:12 So we need our minds and in some sense our pens
01:09:21 to be able to play with these things
01:09:26 and communicate about them.
01:09:28 And those hands and those pens are the things
01:09:33 which smudge the most beautiful thing
01:09:36 that humanity can ever experience.
01:09:40 And maybe if we interact with some intelligent life form,
01:09:48 they will have their own unique smudges.
01:09:51 But the canvas, which is beautiful,
01:09:55 must be identical because that is
01:09:57 universal and ubiquitous truth.
01:09:59 And that’s what makes it deep and meaningful
01:10:01 is that it’s so much more important than whatever
01:10:05 we’re programmed to enjoy as an aspect of human experience.
01:10:10 Yeah, that’s really beautifully put.
01:10:13 The human language is these messy smudges
01:10:17 of trying to express something underlying that
01:10:20 is beautiful.
01:10:23 Speaking of that, on the physics side,
01:10:26 do you think the pursuit of a theory of everything
01:10:31 in physics, as we may call it in our current times,
01:10:34 of understanding the basic fabric of reality
01:10:38 from a physics perspective is an important pursuit?
01:10:41 I think it’s essential.
01:10:44 As I’ve said, I think ideation is our only escape
01:10:49 from the constraints of human condition.
01:10:54 And I think that it’s important that all great thoughts
01:10:58 and ideas are bound together.
01:11:01 And I think the math is beautiful.
01:11:04 And it ensures that the things which
01:11:07 bind great ideas which have already been had
01:11:11 and great discoveries together, it
01:11:15 ensures that those strings will be beautiful.
01:11:19 I think it’s very important to unify
01:11:22 all theories that have brought us to where we are.
01:11:25 Do you think humans can do it?
01:11:28 Do you think humans can solve this puzzle?
01:11:30 Is it possible that we, with our limited cognitive capacity,
01:11:33 will never be able to truly understand this deep,
01:11:37 like deeply understand this underlying canvas?
01:11:42 I think if not, it will be people like you
01:11:46 who invent some sort of, I don’t know,
01:11:53 we’ll call it computation for now,
01:11:55 that will be able to not only discover
01:12:02 that which transcends humanity, but to transcend
01:12:06 human methods of discovering that which is above it.
01:12:11 So superintelligence systems, AGI, and so on,
01:12:14 that are better physicists than us.
01:12:17 I wonder if you might be able to comment.
01:12:19 So your dad does happen to be somebody
01:12:21 who boldly seeks this kind of deep understanding of physics,
01:12:27 the underlying nature of reality from a physics perspective,
01:12:30 from a mathematical physics perspective.
01:12:34 Do you have hope your dad figures it out?
01:12:37 I have great hope.
01:12:38 It’s not supposed to be my journey.
01:12:41 It’s supposed to be his journey.
01:12:42 It’s supposed to be his to express to the world.
01:12:47 Obviously, I’m so proud that I’m connected
01:12:51 to someone who is determined to do such a thing.
01:12:55 And on the other hand, maybe in some sense,
01:12:58 I feel bad for him for having to,
01:13:03 if he’s going to be the thing which discovers
01:13:07 some sort of grand unified theory and expresses it,
01:13:11 I feel sorry that he will have to smudge whatever
01:13:16 canvas this thing is.
01:13:18 Because he’s human.
01:13:19 Really, I think I know I’ve seen a little bit of what
01:13:24 I think great math and great physics looks like.
01:13:27 And it’s unbelievably beautiful.
01:13:31 And then you have to present it to a world
01:13:33 with market constraints and all of this messy sloppiness.
01:13:39 I feel bad in some sense for my dad
01:13:43 because he has to go back and forth
01:13:45 between this beautiful world of math
01:13:47 and whatever the messiness is of his human life.
01:13:54 And then the scientific community
01:13:56 broadly with egos and tensions and just
01:13:59 the dynamics of what makes us human.
01:14:03 He’s also very lucky that he gets to play
01:14:05 with these sorts of things.
01:14:07 It’s a mixed bag.
01:14:09 I both feel a little sorry for him
01:14:12 for having to deal with the beauty as well as
01:14:14 the smudging and the sloppiness of human expression.
01:14:21 And I think it’s difficult not to envy such a beautiful insight
01:14:32 or life or vision.
01:14:35 Well, that’s your own path as well
01:14:36 is this kind of struggle of, as you mentioned,
01:14:41 exploring the beauty of different ideas
01:14:44 while having to communicate those ideas with the best smudges
01:14:48 you can in a world that wants to put labels,
01:14:52 that wants to misinterpret, that wants to destroy
01:14:56 the beauty of those ideas.
01:14:57 And you seem to, at this time, with your youthful enthusiasm,
01:15:03 embracing that struggle despite the fear in the face of fear.
01:15:07 And your dad also carries that same youthful enthusiasm
01:15:13 as well.
01:15:14 But that said, your dad, Eric Weinstein,
01:15:18 he’s a powerful voice, I would say,
01:15:19 a powerful intellect in public discourse.
01:15:22 Is this a burden for you or an inspiration or both
01:15:28 as a young mind yourself?
01:15:31 I think, as I said, there’s this weird contrast of I
01:15:38 know that he has ideas, which I think are very beautiful,
01:15:42 and I know he has to deal with the sort of there’s something
01:15:49 you have to sacrifice in beauty when you bring it
01:15:54 to a world which is not always beautiful.
01:16:00 And there’s an aspect of that which sort of scares me
01:16:04 about this kind of thing.
01:16:07 I also think that, especially since I’m
01:16:13 trying to think about how I should appear publicly,
01:16:16 my dad has been very inspirational
01:16:20 in that I think he brings a sort of fastidious care
01:16:24 to very difficult conversations that.
01:16:27 What does fastidious mean?
01:16:29 It’s just very careful and thoughtful.
01:16:35 He brings that sort of attitude to, I think,
01:16:39 really difficult conversations.
01:16:42 And I know that I don’t have that skill yet.
01:16:45 I don’t think I’m terrible, but.
01:16:47 The care, the nuance, and yet not
01:16:50 being afraid to push forward.
01:16:52 Yeah, I would really like to learn from my dad there.
01:16:55 I think also my dad has been very important to my life
01:17:00 just because I’ve always been a sort of very idiosyncratic
01:17:05 thinker.
01:17:07 And I think I don’t always know how
01:17:12 to interact with the world for those sorts of reasons.
01:17:16 And I think my dad has always been similar.
01:17:21 And if not for my dad, I don’t know
01:17:23 if I would just believe that I was stupid or something.
01:17:28 Because I don’t know if I would know
01:17:31 how to interpret my differences from convention.
01:17:36 So he gave you the power to be different
01:17:42 and use that as a superpower.
01:17:45 Yeah, I guess you could put it that way.
01:17:49 I don’t know who I would believe I
01:17:51 am if I didn’t have my dad telling me
01:17:56 that it wasn’t my own stupidity which
01:17:58 alienated me from certain aspects of standard life.
01:18:02 So I’m very, very thankful for that.
01:18:05 Is there a fond memory you have about an interaction
01:18:08 with your dad, either funny, profound, that kind of sticks
01:18:13 with you now?
01:18:15 A lot.
01:18:18 Part of the reason I ask that, of course,
01:18:20 is just fascinating to see somebody as brilliant as you,
01:18:24 see how the people that you interact with,
01:18:28 how they form the mind that you have,
01:18:30 but also to give an insight of another public figure
01:18:35 like your dad to see from your perspective of what
01:18:39 kind of little magical moments happen in private life.
01:18:42 I would say I remember I think I just posted about this
01:18:47 on Instagram or something.
01:18:50 Otherwise, it didn’t happen.
01:18:52 If you didn’t post that, yeah.
01:18:53 One person who’s always sort of mattered
01:18:56 to whatever weird life and experience I’ve had
01:19:00 has been this comedian, Tom Lehrer.
01:19:03 Do you know him?
01:19:04 Yes.
01:19:06 I love him very much.
01:19:08 Likewise.
01:19:09 Anyway, I remember I think I was five or something.
01:19:12 My dad came home with the CD, this Tom Lehrer CD,
01:19:17 and he told me to listen to it.
01:19:19 And it was all of this bizarre satirical writing
01:19:24 about prostitution and cutting up babies
01:19:29 and all kinds of ridiculously vile content
01:19:34 for a five year old.
01:19:35 I think beyond just my love of Tom Lehrer,
01:19:42 I think it was a way for my dad to express
01:19:46 that from a very young age, he was really
01:19:50 ready to treat me like an adult, and he
01:19:53 was ready to trust me and share his life and his enjoyments
01:20:03 with me in a way that was unconventional
01:20:07 because he was willing to discard tradition
01:20:13 for the chance at a really unique and meaningful
01:20:19 parental relationship.
01:20:21 So trusting that his particular brand of weirdness
01:20:24 is something you can understand at a young age
01:20:26 and embrace and learn from it.
01:20:28 Tom Lehrer, we should clarify, is not all about,
01:20:31 what is it, murder and prostitution.
01:20:33 He’s one of the wittiest, most brilliant musical artists.
01:20:36 If you haven’t listened to his work, you should.
01:20:40 He’s just a rare intellect who’s able to sort of,
01:20:44 in catchy rhyme, express some really difficult ideas
01:20:49 through satire, I suppose.
01:20:52 That still, even though it’s decades ago,
01:20:55 still resonates today, some of the ideas that he expressed.
01:20:58 I will say also that I think I am probably
01:21:02 a more cultured person having listened to Tom Lehrer
01:21:06 than I would have been without, I think,
01:21:09 a lot of his comedy draws upon a canon
01:21:13 that I was really driven to research by saying,
01:21:15 oh, what does this mean?
01:21:16 I don’t understand that reference.
01:21:18 There are a lot of references there
01:21:20 to really inspirational things, which he sort of assumes
01:21:26 going into a lot of his songs.
01:21:28 And for many of us, like me, you have
01:21:29 to piece those things together, looking at Wikipedia pages
01:21:33 and whatnot.
01:21:33 But to tie this back to the original question,
01:21:37 I think there’s sort of a break it,
01:21:43 you bought it notion of parenting.
01:21:47 I think, really, if you’re not going to accept a standard,
01:21:53 you have to invent your own.
01:21:55 And I think, in some ways, that was my dad’s way of telling me
01:21:59 that if I was too unstandard as a child,
01:22:04 he would invent his own way of parenting me
01:22:07 because that was worth it to him.
01:22:09 And I think that was very meaningful to me.
01:22:11 I know you’re young.
01:22:13 This is a weird time to ask this question.
01:22:16 Are you cognizant on the role of love
01:22:19 in your relationship with your dad?
01:22:21 Are you at a place mentally, as a man yourself,
01:22:25 to admit that you love the guy?
01:22:28 I love my dad with the connection
01:22:32 that I think I’ve had to very few things in the world.
01:22:36 I think my dad is one of the people that’s
01:22:38 allowed me to see myself.
01:22:40 And I don’t know who I would imagine myself to be
01:22:45 if not for my dad.
01:22:46 That isn’t to say that I agree with him on everything.
01:22:49 But I think he’s given me courage to accept myself
01:22:54 and to believe that I can teach myself where I’m
01:23:00 unable to learn from convention.
01:23:02 So I love my dad very dearly, yes.
01:23:07 Is there ways in which you wish you could be a better son?
01:23:12 Firstly, I’d like to say I’m sure before I figure out
01:23:16 exactly what those are.
01:23:18 I think whenever I come to conclusions
01:23:22 on what that means, I’m eager to take them.
01:23:28 What do you mean by that?
01:23:31 What do you mean by a conclusion?
01:23:32 If I have an idea for how to be a better son,
01:23:35 I think I’m inclined to try to be that person.
01:23:39 I think that’s true of almost anything.
01:23:41 I think if I have ideas for improvement,
01:23:44 it would be wasteful not to act on them.
01:23:49 So I suppose one thing I could say
01:23:55 is that I think idealism and what could almost
01:24:03 be considered naivete is not necessarily
01:24:07 a lacking of maturity, but instead an obligation
01:24:18 to those older than us who have lived and seen too much
01:24:27 to fully believe in what is naive and right
01:24:34 without the assistance of the young
01:24:41 to reinspire traditional idealism.
01:24:46 And so perhaps instead of trying to be more mature all the time,
01:24:53 I should spend some time trying to be an idealistic form of hope
01:24:59 in the lives of people who maybe have seen too much
01:25:04 to retain all of that original hope.
01:25:07 So that’s something that’s difficult,
01:25:11 but especially appearing in public
01:25:15 as someone as young as I am, I think
01:25:18 anything I do, which is juvenile by choice,
01:25:21 will be held against me.
01:25:24 But maybe that’s a sacrifice that I have to make.
01:25:26 I have to retain some sort of youthful hope and optimism.
01:25:30 Yeah, I can’t.
01:25:32 I mean, I’m going to get teary eyed now, but I have allergies.
01:25:36 But also, this is pretty powerful what you’re saying.
01:25:39 I certainly share your ideas.
01:25:40 It’s something I struggle with just by instinct.
01:25:44 You should read The Idiot by Dostoevsky.
01:25:46 By instinct, I love being naive and seeing
01:25:52 the world from a hopeful perspective,
01:25:54 from an optimistic perspective.
01:25:56 And it’s sad that that is something
01:26:00 you pay a price for in this world,
01:26:03 like in the academic world, especially as you’re coming up
01:26:06 through schooling.
01:26:07 But just actually, it’s a hit on your reputation
01:26:10 throughout your life.
01:26:12 And it’s a sad truth, but you have to, for many things,
01:26:15 if it’s a principle you hold, you
01:26:19 have to be willing to pay the costs.
01:26:21 And ultimately, I believe that in part,
01:26:26 a hopeful view will help you realize
01:26:30 the best version of yourself.
01:26:31 Because optimism is a kind of, optimism is productive.
01:26:37 Like believing that the world is and can be amazing
01:26:44 allows you to create a more amazing world somehow.
01:26:47 I mean, I’m not sure if it’s the human nature
01:26:51 of a fundamental law of physics.
01:26:52 I don’t know.
01:26:53 But believe in the impossible in the sense
01:26:55 being optimistic about the thing.
01:26:57 It’s similar, going back to what you’ve said,
01:27:00 is believing that a radical, that a powerful single idea,
01:27:03 that a single individual can revolutionize some framework
01:27:09 that we’re operating in that will change
01:27:11 the world for the better.
01:27:12 Believing that allows you to have the chance
01:27:16 to create that.
01:27:17 And so I’m with you on the optimism.
01:27:19 But you may have to pay a cost of optimism
01:27:23 and naive hopefulness.
01:27:26 I mean, in some sense, optimism limits freedom.
01:27:31 I think if we don’t really have much choice in choosing
01:27:36 what is perfect, if it exists as an ideal,
01:27:41 then there isn’t much room for creativity.
01:27:45 And that’s a danger of optimism, is someone
01:27:47 who would like to be creative.
01:27:50 I think it was Warren Zeevon said,
01:27:54 accepting dreams, you’re never really free.
01:27:56 And that’s something I think about a lot.
01:28:00 He’s an interesting guy, also.
01:28:01 I really like him.
01:28:04 On that topic, you do have a bit of an appreciation
01:28:08 and connection with music.
01:28:09 I saw you play some guitar a few months ago.
01:28:15 Can you put, in a philosophical sense,
01:28:18 your connection to music?
01:28:20 What insights about life, about just the way
01:28:24 you see the world, do you get from music?
01:28:26 I think the role music has played in my life
01:28:29 was originally motivated by wanting
01:28:33 to prove things to myself.
01:28:35 I really have no ear for music.
01:28:37 I have a terrible sense of pitch.
01:28:41 And I think a lot of music relies
01:28:43 on very standard teaching.
01:28:45 If you think about lessons, for example, music lessons,
01:28:50 there’s a routine to them, which is so archaic and traditional
01:28:56 that there’s no room for deviation.
01:28:59 I think all of that suggested to me
01:29:03 that I would never have a relationship with music.
01:29:06 I loved listening to music.
01:29:07 It was just difficult to me.
01:29:09 It saddened me.
01:29:12 I wanted to know if there was any way I could build
01:29:15 a connection to music, given who I am, my own idiosyncrasies,
01:29:22 what challenges I have.
01:29:25 I decided to try to learn music theory
01:29:27 before I touched an instrument.
01:29:32 I think that gave me a very unique opportunity instead
01:29:35 of spending my time fruitlessly at the beginning
01:29:38 on the syntax of a particular instrument.
01:29:41 This is how you, this is your posture on the piano.
01:29:43 This is how you hold your fingers.
01:29:45 I tried instead to learn what made music work.
01:29:50 And the wonderful thing about that
01:29:52 was I’m pretty sure that any instrument with discrete notes
01:29:56 is mine for the taking within a day or so of having
01:30:00 the ability to play with it.
01:30:03 So I think approaching music abstractly
01:30:07 gave me the ability to instantiate it everywhere.
01:30:13 And I think it also taught me something about self teaching.
01:30:18 Recently, I’ve tried getting into classical music
01:30:22 because, at least traditionally, this
01:30:24 is the thing which is thought to require the most
01:30:28 rigor and traditional teaching.
01:30:35 I think it’s essentially taught me,
01:30:37 even if I’ll never be a great classical performer,
01:30:41 that there is nothing one can’t really
01:30:45 teach themself in this era.
01:30:48 So I’ve been enjoying whatever connection I have with music.
01:30:53 The other thing I’ll say about it
01:30:56 is that it’s a very rewarding learning process.
01:31:00 We know, for example, that music accesses our neurochemicals
01:31:07 very directly.
01:31:09 And if you teach yourself a little bit of theory
01:31:14 and are able to instantiate it on an instrument
01:31:19 without wasting your time or spending your time tediously
01:31:23 on learning the particulars of that instrument,
01:31:28 you can instantly sit down and access your own dopamine loops.
01:31:32 And so you don’t really need to motivate yourself with music
01:31:35 because you’re giving your brain drugs.
01:31:39 Who needs motivation to give themselves drugs?
01:31:43 And learn something.
01:31:45 So I think more people should be playing music.
01:31:53 I think a lot of people don’t realize how easy it
01:31:55 can be to approach if you take a sort of unstandard approach.
01:32:01 And the unstandard approach in your sense
01:32:03 was understanding the theory first,
01:32:05 and then just from the foundation of the theory,
01:32:08 be able to then just take on any instrument
01:32:12 and start creating something that sounds reasonably good
01:32:17 or learning something that sounds reasonably good.
01:32:19 And then plugging into the, as you call them,
01:32:23 the dopamine loops of your brain,
01:32:26 allowing yourself to enjoy the process.
01:32:29 What about the pain in the ass rigorous process of practice?
01:32:34 So is there something about my dopamine loops, for example,
01:32:37 that enjoys doing the same thing over and over and over again
01:32:40 and watching myself improve?
01:32:42 I think that’s because music is more effective at accessing us
01:32:47 when it’s played correctly.
01:32:49 And I think you play, I’m positive that you play music
01:32:53 much more correctly than I do.
01:32:56 So if you are going to sit down and play something
01:32:59 that you’ve learned, that piece will be much more satisfying
01:33:03 to your ears and to your brain than if I
01:33:06 were to play that piece just sitting down
01:33:08 with an instrument.
01:33:11 But it’s sort of a trade off with freedom and rigor
01:33:18 because even if I should be spending more of my time
01:33:22 practicing rigorously, I know I don’t have to to make me happy.
01:33:28 Well, Jocko Willink, I think, has this saying
01:33:31 that discipline is freedom.
01:33:33 So maybe the repetition of the disciplined repetition
01:33:39 is actually one of the mechanisms of achieving freedom.
01:33:42 It’s another way to get to freedom,
01:33:45 that it doesn’t have to be a constraint,
01:33:47 but in a sense, unlocks greater sets of opportunity
01:33:52 than results in a deeper experience of freedom.
01:33:56 Maybe.
01:33:56 Particularly if you’re thinking about discipline
01:34:01 and method for improvisation, there
01:34:08 are a million pieces that you could improvise
01:34:10 with the same discipline in how to approach
01:34:14 that improvisation.
01:34:16 So I think it’s true that discipline promotes freedom
01:34:23 if you insert a layer of indirection.
01:34:28 Because I think if you’re trying to learn
01:34:32 one piece that was written 400 years ago
01:34:35 and you’re playing it over and over again,
01:34:38 there is nothing personal or creative about that process,
01:34:46 even if it’s beautiful and satisfying.
01:34:49 There has to be some sort of discipline applied
01:34:53 to the creativity of self.
01:34:55 So I think that is the layer of indirection
01:35:01 which reconciles both approaches to freedom and discipline
01:35:06 and enjoyment of music.
01:35:09 Discipline applied to the creativity of self.
01:35:15 Damn, Zev.
01:35:16 Thank you.
01:35:18 Now, as an aging man yourself, if you
01:35:22 were to give advice to young folks today
01:35:26 of how to approach life and maybe advice to yourself,
01:35:30 is there some way you could condense a set of principles,
01:35:35 a set of advices you would give to yourself
01:35:38 and to other young folks of how to live life?
01:35:43 Sure.
01:35:44 I would say that with the collapse of systems
01:35:49 that have existed for thousands of years,
01:35:55 whatever is happening with universities
01:35:57 might be an example of some system that may or may not
01:36:00 be decaying.
01:36:02 I think with the destruction of important systems,
01:36:09 there is a unique opportunity to invest in oneself.
01:36:15 And I think that is always the right approach,
01:36:19 provided that the investment one makes in his self
01:36:23 is obligated towards humanity as a whole.
01:36:28 And I think that is the great struggle of my generation.
01:36:36 Will we create our own paths that
01:36:38 are capable of saving whatever is collapsing?
01:36:42 Or will we be squashed by the debris?
01:36:46 And I hope to articulate what patterns
01:36:52 I see this struggle taking over the years
01:36:55 that my generation becomes particularly
01:36:58 active in the world as an important force.
01:37:02 I think already we’re important as a demographic
01:37:06 to particular markets.
01:37:07 But I should hope that our voices will matter as well,
01:37:11 starting very soon.
01:37:12 So I would try to think about that.
01:37:16 That would be my advice.
01:37:19 It’s a silly question to ask, perhaps.
01:37:21 But a bit of a Russian one.
01:37:25 It’s silly because you’re young, but I
01:37:28 don’t think it’s actually silly because you’re young.
01:37:31 Do you ponder your mortality?
01:37:34 And are you just afraid of death in general?
01:37:40 So tying us back to our previous conversations
01:37:46 about abstraction versus experience,
01:37:53 which is determining our notions of our life and our world,
01:37:59 death is interesting in that it is obviously hyper
01:38:04 important to a person’s life.
01:38:07 And it is something that, for the most part,
01:38:09 no human will really experience and be able to reflect upon.
01:38:15 So our notions of death are sort of proof
01:38:20 that if we want to make the most of our lives,
01:38:22 we have to think abstractly and relying not at all at times
01:38:29 on experiential thought and understandings
01:38:37 because we can’t really experience death and reflect
01:38:41 upon it hence and use it to motivate us.
01:38:43 It has to remain some sort of abstraction.
01:38:45 And I think if we have trouble comprehending true abstraction,
01:38:53 we tend to view ourselves as nearly immortal.
01:38:58 And I think that’s very dangerous.
01:39:00 So one concrete implication for my belief in abstraction
01:39:07 would be that we all need to be aware of our own deaths.
01:39:14 And we need to understand concretely
01:39:19 the boundaries of our lifetimes.
01:39:22 And no amount of experience can really motivate that.
01:39:26 It has to be driven by thought and abstraction in theory.
01:39:31 That’s one of the deepest elements
01:39:34 of what it means to be human is our ability
01:39:36 to form abstractions about our mortality versus animals.
01:39:41 I think there’s just something really fundamental
01:39:44 about our interaction with the abstractions of death.
01:39:49 And there’s a lot of philosophers
01:39:54 that say that that’s actually core to everything
01:39:59 we create in this world, which is us struggling
01:40:03 with this impossible to understand idea of mortality.
01:40:11 I mean, I’m drawn to this idea because both the mystery of it
01:40:17 but also just from the human experience perspective,
01:40:19 it seems that you get a lot of meaning from stuff ending.
01:40:25 It’s kind of sad the flip side of that
01:40:27 to think that stuff won’t be as meaningful if it doesn’t end,
01:40:31 if it’s not finite.
01:40:33 But it seems like resources gain value from being finite.
01:40:38 And that’s true for time.
01:40:40 That’s true for the deliciousness of ice cream.
01:40:43 That’s true for love, for everything, for music,
01:40:46 and so on.
01:40:47 And yeah, it seems deeply human to try to, as you said,
01:40:55 concretize the abstractions of mortality
01:40:58 even though we can never truly experience it
01:41:00 because that’s the whole point of it.
01:41:02 Once it ends, you can’t experience it.
01:41:04 Yeah.
01:41:05 Again, another ridiculous question.
01:41:07 OK.
01:41:10 What do you think is the meaning of it all?
01:41:13 What’s the meaning of life?
01:41:14 From your deep thinking about this world,
01:41:20 is there a good way to answer any
01:41:22 of the why questions about this existence here on Earth?
01:41:26 And as I said, we’re here in part by principle
01:41:28 and in part by accident.
01:41:30 And a lot of the things which bring us joy
01:41:36 are programmed to bring us joy to ensure
01:41:39 our evolutionary success.
01:41:42 And so I would not necessarily consider
01:41:51 all of the things which bring us joy to be meaningful.
01:41:57 I think they play a very obvious role and a clear pattern,
01:42:03 and we don’t have much choice in that.
01:42:06 I think that outrules the idea of joy
01:42:10 being the meaning of life.
01:42:13 I think it’s a nice thing we get to have,
01:42:19 even if it’s not inherently meaningful.
01:42:22 I think the most wonderful thing that we have ever been given
01:42:36 has been our ability to, as I said,
01:42:42 observe what transcends us as humans.
01:42:47 And I think to live a meaningful life is to see that
01:42:52 and hopefully contribute to that.
01:42:56 So to try to understand what makes us human
01:42:58 and to transcend that and in some small way contribute to it
01:43:03 in the finite time we have here.
01:43:08 Yeah.
01:43:11 Those are some powerful words.
01:43:13 Thank you.
01:43:13 You’re a truly special human being.
01:43:15 It’s really an honor to talk to you.
01:43:17 I can’t, I’m just, I’m a newborn fan of yours
01:43:23 and I can’t wait to see how you push the world.
01:43:25 Please embrace the fear you feel and be bold.
01:43:30 And I think you will do some special things in this world.
01:43:34 I’m confident if the world doesn’t destroy you
01:43:37 and I hope it doesn’t.
01:43:38 Be strong, be brave.
01:43:41 You’re an inspiration.
01:43:42 Keep doing your thing.
01:43:44 And thanks for talking today.
01:43:46 Thank you so much, Les.
01:43:48 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Zev Weinstein
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01:44:11 And now let me leave you with some words from Aristotle.
01:44:15 Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom.
01:44:19 Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.