Transcript
00:00:00 The following is a conversation with David Newman.
00:00:03 She’s the Apollo Program Professor at MIT
00:00:06 and the former Deputy Administrator of NASA
00:00:08 and has been a principal investigator
00:00:10 on four space flight missions.
00:00:13 Her research interests are in aerospace
00:00:15 biomedical engineering, investigating human performance
00:00:18 in varying gravity environments.
00:00:20 She has designed and engineered and built
00:00:23 some incredible space suit technology,
00:00:25 namely the BioSuit that we talk about in this conversation.
00:00:29 Due to some scheduling challenges on both our parts,
00:00:32 we only had about 40 minutes together.
00:00:34 And in true engineering style, she said,
00:00:37 I talk fast, you pick the best questions, let’s get it done.
00:00:41 And we did.
00:00:42 It was a fascinating conversation
00:00:43 about space exploration and the future of spacesuits.
00:00:47 This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.
00:00:50 If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,
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00:00:58 at Lex Friedman, spelled F R I D M A N.
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00:03:06 And now, here’s my conversation with Deva Newman.
00:03:11 You circumnavigated the globe on boat,
00:03:16 so let’s look back in history.
00:03:17 500 years ago, Ferdinand Magellan’s crew
00:03:21 was first to circumnavigate the globe,
00:03:24 but he died, which I think people don’t know,
00:03:27 like halfway through, and so did 242 of the 260 sailors
00:03:32 that took that three year journey.
00:03:35 What do you think it was like for that crew at that time
00:03:38 heading out into the unknown to face probably likely death?
00:03:43 Do you think they were filled with fear, with excitement?
00:03:46 Probably not fear, I think in all of exploration,
00:03:50 the challenge and the unknown, so probably wonderment.
00:03:53 And then just when you really are sailing the world’s oceans,
00:03:59 you have extreme weather of all kinds.
00:04:01 When we were circumnavigating, it was challenging,
00:04:03 a new dynamic, you really appreciate Mother Earth,
00:04:07 you appreciate the winds and the waves,
00:04:08 so back to Magellan and his crew,
00:04:10 since they really didn’t have a three dimensional map
00:04:15 of the globe, of the Earth when they went out,
00:04:18 just probably looking over the horizon thinking,
00:04:20 what’s there, what’s there?
00:04:21 So I would say the challenge that had to be really important
00:04:24 in terms of the team dynamics and that leadership
00:04:26 had to be incredibly important, team dynamics,
00:04:29 how do you keep people focused on the mission?
00:04:32 So you think the psychology, that’s interesting,
00:04:34 there’s probably echoes of that in the space exploration
00:04:36 stuff we’ll talk about.
00:04:37 So the psychology of the dynamics between the human beings
00:04:41 on the mission is important?
00:04:43 Absolutely, for a Mars mission, it’s lots of challenges,
00:04:46 technology, but since I specialize
00:04:48 in keeping my astronauts alive, the psychosocial issues,
00:04:52 the psychology of psychosocial team dynamics, leadership,
00:04:55 that’s, you know, we’re all people, so that’s gonna be,
00:04:58 that’s always a huge impact, one of the top three,
00:05:01 I think, of any isolated, confined environment,
00:05:04 any mission that is really pretty extreme.
00:05:07 So your Twitter handle is devaexplorer,
00:05:11 so when did you first fall in love with the idea
00:05:13 of exploration?
00:05:14 Ah, that’s a great question, you know, maybe as long
00:05:17 as I can remember, as I grew up in Montana
00:05:19 in the Rocky Mountains and Helena in the capital,
00:05:22 and so literally, you know, Mount Helena was my backyard,
00:05:25 was right up there, so exploring, being in the mountains,
00:05:28 looking at caves, just running around,
00:05:31 but always being in nature, so since my earliest memories,
00:05:36 I, you know, think of myself as kind of exploring
00:05:40 the natural beauty of the Rocky Mountains where I grew up.
00:05:44 So exploration is not limited to any domain,
00:05:46 it’s just anything, so the natural domain of any kind,
00:05:49 so going out to the woods into a place you haven’t been,
00:05:51 it’s all exploration.
00:05:52 I think so, yeah, I have a pretty all encompassing
00:05:55 definition of exploration.
00:05:56 So what about space exploration?
00:05:58 When were you first captivated by the idea
00:06:00 that we little humans could venture out into the space,
00:06:05 into the great unknown of space?
00:06:06 So it’s a great year to talk about that,
00:06:08 the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11,
00:06:10 as I was alive during Apollo,
00:06:12 and specifically Apollo 11, I was five years old,
00:06:14 and I distinctly remember that, I remember that humanity,
00:06:19 I’m sure I probably didn’t know their names at the time,
00:06:21 you know, there’s Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin,
00:06:23 and never forget Michael Collins in orbit,
00:06:26 you know, those three men, you know,
00:06:30 doing something that just seemed impossible,
00:06:32 seemed impossible a decade earlier, even a year earlier,
00:06:36 but so the Apollo program really inspired me,
00:06:39 and then I think it actually just taught me to dream,
00:06:42 to any impossible mission could be possible
00:06:46 with enough focus, and I’m sure you need some luck,
00:06:49 but you definitely need the leadership,
00:06:50 you need the focus of the mission,
00:06:53 so since an early age, I thought,
00:06:55 of course, people, it should be interplanetary,
00:06:57 of course, people, we need people on Earth,
00:06:58 and we’re gonna have people exploring space as well.
00:07:00 So that seemed obvious, even at that age, of course.
00:07:04 It opened it up, before we saw men on the moon,
00:07:07 it wasn’t obvious to me at all, but once we understood
00:07:10 that yes, absolutely, astronauts, that’s what they do,
00:07:12 they explore, they go into space,
00:07:14 and they land on other planets or moons.
00:07:17 So again, maybe a romanticized philosophical question,
00:07:20 but when you look up at the stars,
00:07:23 knowing that, you know, there’s at least 100 billion
00:07:28 of them in the Milky Way galaxy, right,
00:07:30 so we’re really a small speck in this giant thing
00:07:34 that’s the visible universe,
00:07:36 how does that make you feel about our efforts here?
00:07:40 I love the perspective, I love that perspective,
00:07:42 I always open my public talks
00:07:44 with a big Hubble Space Telescope image,
00:07:46 looking out into, you mentioned just now,
00:07:48 the solar system, the Milky Way,
00:07:49 because I think it’s really important to know
00:07:52 that we’re just a small, pale, blue dot,
00:07:53 we’re really fortunate, we’re on the best planet by far,
00:07:56 life is fantastic here.
00:07:58 That we know of, you’re confident
00:08:00 this is the best planet.
00:08:01 I’m pretty sure it’s the best planet,
00:08:02 the best planet that we know of.
00:08:03 I mean, I searched my researches, you know,
00:08:05 in mission worlds, and when will we find life?
00:08:08 I think actually probably the next decade,
00:08:10 we find probably past life,
00:08:11 probably the evidence of past life on Mars, let’s say.
00:08:14 You think there was once life on Mars,
00:08:17 or do you think there’s currently?
00:08:19 I’m more comfortable saying probably 3.5 billion years ago,
00:08:23 feel pretty confident there was life on Mars,
00:08:24 just because then it had an electromagnetic shield,
00:08:27 it had an atmosphere, has wonderful gravity level,
00:08:30 three HGs, fantastic, you know, you’re all super human,
00:08:34 we can all slam dunk a basketball,
00:08:35 I mean, it’s gonna be fun to play sports on Mars.
00:08:38 So I think we’ll find past, no, fossilized,
00:08:40 probably the evidence of past life on Mars.
00:08:43 Currently, that’s okay, we need the next decade,
00:08:45 but the evidence is mounting for sure.
00:08:47 We do have the organics, we’re finding organics,
00:08:49 we have water, seasonal water on Mars.
00:08:52 We used to just know about the ice caps,
00:08:54 you know, North and South Pole,
00:08:55 now we have seasonal water.
00:08:57 We do have the building blocks for life on Mars.
00:09:00 We really need to dig down into the soil,
00:09:02 because everything on the top surface is radiated,
00:09:04 but once we find down, will we see any life forms?
00:09:08 Will we see any bugs?
00:09:08 I leave it open as a possibility,
00:09:11 but I feel pretty certain that past life,
00:09:13 or fossilized life forms, we’ll find.
00:09:15 And then we have to get to all these ocean worlds,
00:09:18 these beautiful moons of other planets,
00:09:21 since we know they have water,
00:09:22 and we’re looking for some simple search for life,
00:09:26 follow the water, carbon based life,
00:09:28 that’s the only life we know.
00:09:29 There could be other life forms that we don’t know about,
00:09:31 but it’s hard to search for them, because we don’t know.
00:09:33 So in our search for life in the solar system,
00:09:36 it’s definitely search, follow the water,
00:09:39 and look for the building blocks of life.
00:09:41 So you think in the next decade,
00:09:42 we might see hints of past life, or even current life?
00:09:45 I think so, that’s it.
00:09:46 Pretty optimistic.
00:09:47 I love the optimism.
00:09:48 I’m pretty optimistic.
00:09:49 Do humans have to be involved,
00:09:50 or can this be robots and rovers and?
00:09:52 Probably teams, I mean, we’ve been at it,
00:09:54 on Mars in particular, 50 years.
00:09:55 We’ve been exploring Mars for 50 years, great data, right?
00:09:58 Our images of Mars today are phenomenal.
00:10:01 Now we know how Mars lost its atmosphere.
00:10:03 We’re starting to know,
00:10:04 because of the lack of the electromagnetic shield.
00:10:07 We know about the water on Mars.
00:10:08 So we’ve been studying 50 years with our robots,
00:10:10 we still haven’t found it.
00:10:11 So I think once we have a human mission there,
00:10:13 we just accelerate things.
00:10:15 But it’s always humans and our rovers and robots together.
00:10:18 But we just have to think that 50 years,
00:10:19 we’ve been looking at Mars, and taking images,
00:10:23 and doing the best science that we can.
00:10:25 People need to realize Mars is really far away.
00:10:27 It’s really hard to get to.
00:10:28 You know, this is extreme, extreme exploration.
00:10:31 We mentioned Magellan first,
00:10:32 or all of the wonderful explorers and sailors of the past,
00:10:35 which kind of are lots of my inspiration for exploration.
00:10:39 Mars is a different ball game.
00:10:40 I mean, it’s eight months to get there,
00:10:42 year and a half to get home.
00:10:44 I mean, it’s really extreme.
00:10:45 The harsh environment in all kinds of ways.
00:10:47 But the kind of organisms we might be able to see
00:10:50 hints of on Mars are kind of microorganisms perhaps.
00:10:54 Do you think?
00:10:55 Yeah, and remember that humans,
00:10:56 we’re kind of, you know, we’re hosts, right?
00:10:57 We’re hosts to all of our bacteria and viruses, right?
00:11:00 Do you think it’s a big leap
00:11:02 from the viruses and the bacteria to us humans?
00:11:07 Put another way, do you think on all those moons,
00:11:10 beautiful, wet moons that you mentioned,
00:11:13 you think there’s intelligent life out there?
00:11:15 I hope so.
00:11:16 I mean, that’s the hope, but you know,
00:11:18 we don’t have the scientific evidence for that now.
00:11:21 I think all the evidence we have in terms of life existing
00:11:24 is much more compelling again,
00:11:26 because we have the building blocks of life now.
00:11:28 When that life turns into intelligence, that’s a big unknown.
00:11:32 If we ever meet,
00:11:33 do you think we would be able to find a common language?
00:11:37 I hope so.
00:11:38 We haven’t met yet.
00:11:39 It’s just so far, I mean, do physics just play a role here?
00:11:42 Look at all these exoplanets, 6,000 exoplanets.
00:11:44 I mean, even the couple dozen Earth like planets
00:11:46 that are exoplanets that really look like habitable planets.
00:11:50 These are very Earth like.
00:11:51 They look like they have all the building blocks.
00:11:53 I can’t wait to get there.
00:11:54 The only thing is they’re 10 to 100 light years away.
00:11:57 So scientifically, we know they’re there.
00:12:00 We know that they’re habitable.
00:12:01 They have, you know, everything going from, right?
00:12:04 Like, you know, we call them in the Goldilocks zone,
00:12:05 not too hot, not too cold,
00:12:06 just perfect for habitability for life.
00:12:10 But now the reality is if they’re 10 at the best
00:12:13 to 100 to thousands of light years away,
00:12:17 so what’s out there?
00:12:18 But I just can’t think that we’re not the only ones.
00:12:20 So absolutely life, life in the universe,
00:12:23 probably intelligent life as well.
00:12:25 Do you think there needs to be fundamental revolutions
00:12:28 in how we, the tools we use to travel through space
00:12:32 in order for us to venture outside of our solar system?
00:12:35 Or do you think the ways, the rockets,
00:12:38 the ideas we have now, the engineering ideas we have now
00:12:41 will be enough to venture out?
00:12:43 Well, that’s a good question.
00:12:44 Right now, you know, cause again, speed of light is a limit.
00:12:47 We don’t have a warp speed warp drive
00:12:49 to explore our solar system, to get to Mars,
00:12:51 to explore all the planets.
00:12:53 Then we need a technology push,
00:12:55 but technology push here is just advanced propulsion.
00:12:57 It’d be great if I could get humans to Mars
00:13:00 and say, you know, three to four months, not eight months.
00:13:02 I mean, half the time, 50% reduction.
00:13:04 That’s great in terms of safety and wellness of the crew.
00:13:08 Orbital mechanic, but physics rules,
00:13:09 you know, orbital mechanics is still there.
00:13:11 Physics rules, we can’t defy physics.
00:13:14 I love that.
00:13:15 So invent a new physics.
00:13:16 I mean, look at quantum, you know,
00:13:17 look at quantum theory.
00:13:18 So you never know.
00:13:19 Exactly, I mean, we are always learning.
00:13:21 So we definitely don’t know all the physics that exist too,
00:13:23 but we’re, we still have to, it’s not science fiction.
00:13:27 You know, we still have to pay attention to physics
00:13:29 in terms of our speed of travel for space flight.
00:13:32 So you were the deputy administrator of NASA
00:13:34 and during the Obama administration,
00:13:37 there’s a current Artemis program
00:13:39 that’s working on a crewed mission to the moon
00:13:41 and then perhaps to Mars.
00:13:44 What are you excited about there?
00:13:46 What are your thoughts on this program?
00:13:48 What are the biggest challenges do you think
00:13:49 of getting to the moon, of landing to the moon once again,
00:13:53 and then the big step to Mars?
00:13:57 Well, I love, you know, the moon program now, Artemis.
00:14:00 It is definitely, we’ve been in low earth orbit.
00:14:02 I love low earth orbit too,
00:14:03 but I just always look at it as three phases.
00:14:05 So low earth orbit where we’ve been 40 years,
00:14:07 so definitely time to get back to deep space,
00:14:10 time to get to the moon.
00:14:11 There’s so much to do on the moon.
00:14:13 I hope we don’t get stuck on the moon for 50 years.
00:14:16 I really want to get to the moon, spend the next decade,
00:14:19 first with the lander, then humans.
00:14:20 There’s just a lot to explore,
00:14:21 but to me it’s a big technology push.
00:14:24 It’s only three days away.
00:14:25 So the moon is definitely the right place.
00:14:27 So we kind of buy down our technology.
00:14:29 We invest in specifically habitats, life support systems.
00:14:33 So we need suits.
00:14:34 We really need to understand really how to live off planet.
00:14:37 We’ve been off planet and low earth orbit,
00:14:39 but still that’s only 400 kilometers up, 250 miles, right?
00:14:42 So we get to the moon.
00:14:43 It really is a great proving ground for the technologies.
00:14:47 And now we’re in deep space, radiation becomes a huge issue
00:14:50 and to keep our astronauts well and alive.
00:14:52 And I look at all of that investment for moon exploration
00:14:57 to the ultimate goal, the horizon goals we call it,
00:15:00 to get people to Mars.
00:15:01 But we just don’t go to Mars tomorrow, right?
00:15:03 We really need a decade on the moon, I think,
00:15:05 investing in the technologies, learning,
00:15:07 making sure the astronauts are, their health,
00:15:09 they’re safe and well,
00:15:11 and also learning so much about in situ research utilization,
00:15:15 ISRU, in situ resource utilization is huge
00:15:19 when it comes to exploration for the moon and Mars.
00:15:21 So we need a test bed.
00:15:23 And to me, it really is a lunar test bed.
00:15:26 And then we use those same investments
00:15:29 to think about getting people to Mars in the 2030s.
00:15:32 So developing sort of a platform
00:15:34 of all the kind of research tools of all the,
00:15:36 what’s the resource utilization, can you speak to that?
00:15:39 Yeah, so ISRU for the moon, it’s,
00:15:42 we’ll go to the South Pole and it’s fascinating.
00:15:45 We have images of it.
00:15:46 Of course, we know there’s permanently shaded areas
00:15:49 and like by Shackleton crater,
00:15:50 and there’s areas that are permanently in the sun.
00:15:53 Well, it seems that there’s a lot of water ice,
00:15:56 water that’s entrapped in ice and the lunar craters.
00:16:00 That’s the first place you go.
00:16:01 Why?
00:16:02 Because it’s water and when you wanna try to,
00:16:03 it could be fuel, life support systems.
00:16:06 So you kind of, again, you go where the water is.
00:16:08 And so when the moon is kind of for resources utilization,
00:16:12 but to learn how to,
00:16:13 can we make the fuels out of the resources
00:16:16 that are on the moon?
00:16:16 We have to think about 3D printing, right?
00:16:18 You don’t get to bring all this mass with you.
00:16:20 You have to learn how to literally live off the land.
00:16:22 We need a pressure shell.
00:16:24 We need to have an atmosphere for people to live in.
00:16:28 So all of that is kind of buying down the technology,
00:16:31 doing the investigation, doing the science.
00:16:32 What are the basically called lunar volatiles?
00:16:35 What is that ice on the moon?
00:16:38 How much of it is there?
00:16:40 What are the resources look like?
00:16:42 To me, that helps us, that’s just the next step
00:16:44 in getting humans to Mars.
00:16:46 You know, it’s cheaper and more effective
00:16:47 to sort of develop some of these difficult challenges,
00:16:50 like solve some of these challenges,
00:16:51 practice, develop, test, and so on on the moon.
00:16:53 Absolutely. That is on Mars.
00:16:55 Absolutely.
00:16:55 And people are gonna love to, you know,
00:16:56 you get to the moon, you get to,
00:16:57 you have a beautiful Earthrise.
00:16:58 I mean, you have the most magnificent view of Earth
00:17:01 being off planet.
00:17:02 So it just makes sense.
00:17:03 I think we’re gonna have thousands, lots of people,
00:17:05 hopefully tens of thousands in low Earth orbit,
00:17:06 because low Earth orbit is a beautiful place to go
00:17:08 and look down on the Earth,
00:17:09 but people wanna return home.
00:17:11 I think the lunar explorers
00:17:12 will also wanna do round trips
00:17:15 and, you know, be on the moon, three day trip,
00:17:17 explore, do science, also because the lunar day
00:17:20 is 14 days and lunar nights, also 14 days.
00:17:23 So in that 28 day cycle, you know,
00:17:26 half of it is in light, half of it’s in dark.
00:17:29 So people would probably wanna do, you know,
00:17:31 couple of week trips, month long trips,
00:17:33 not longer than that.
00:17:34 What do you mean by people?
00:17:36 People, explorers.
00:17:37 I mean, yeah, astronauts are gonna be civilians
00:17:41 in the future too.
00:17:41 Not all astronauts are gonna be government astronauts.
00:17:44 Actually, when I was at NASA, we changed,
00:17:45 we actually got the law changed to recognize astronauts
00:17:48 that are not only government employees,
00:17:50 you know, NASA astronauts
00:17:51 or European Space Agency astronauts
00:17:52 or Russian Space Agency that astronauts,
00:17:54 because of the big push we put on the private sector,
00:17:58 that astronauts essentially are gonna be astronauts.
00:17:59 You get over 100 kilometers up
00:18:02 and think once you’ve done orbital flight,
00:18:06 then you’re an astronaut.
00:18:07 So a lot of private citizens are gonna become astronauts.
00:18:10 Do you think one day you might step foot on the moon?
00:18:13 I think it’d be good to go to the moon.
00:18:14 I’d give that a shot.
00:18:16 Mars, I’m gonna, it’s my life’s work
00:18:18 to get the next generation to Mars.
00:18:20 That’s you or even younger than you,
00:18:22 you know, my students generation
00:18:24 will be the Martian explorers.
00:18:26 I’m just working to facilitate that,
00:18:28 but that’s not gonna be me.
00:18:30 Hey, the moon’s pretty good.
00:18:31 And it’s a lot tough.
00:18:32 I mean, it’s still a really tough mission.
00:18:35 It’s an extreme mission, exactly.
00:18:37 It’s great for exploration, but doable,
00:18:39 but again, before Apollo,
00:18:41 we didn’t think getting humans to the moon was even possible.
00:18:44 So we kind of made that possible, but we need to go back.
00:18:46 We absolutely need to go back.
00:18:47 We’re investing in the heavy lift launch capabilities
00:18:50 that we need to get there.
00:18:51 We haven’t had that, you know,
00:18:52 since the Apollo days, since Saturn five.
00:18:53 So now we have three options on the board.
00:18:56 That’s what’s so fantastic.
00:18:57 NASA has its space launch system.
00:18:59 SpaceX is gonna have its heavy capability
00:19:02 and Blue Origin is coming along too with heavy lifts.
00:19:05 So that’s pretty fantastic from where I sit.
00:19:07 I’m the Apollo program professor.
00:19:09 Today I have zero heavy lift launch capability.
00:19:12 I can’t wait, just in a few years,
00:19:13 we’ll have three different heavy lift launch capabilities.
00:19:16 So that’s pretty exciting.
00:19:18 You know, your heart is perhaps with NASA,
00:19:20 but you mentioned SpaceX and Blue Origin.
00:19:23 What are your thoughts of SpaceX
00:19:26 and the innovative efforts there
00:19:28 from the sort of private company aspect?
00:19:31 Oh, they’re great.
00:19:32 They’re, remember that the investments in SpaceX
00:19:35 is government funding.
00:19:36 It’s NASA funding, it’s US Air Force funding,
00:19:39 just as it should be,
00:19:40 because they’re betting on a company who is moving fast,
00:19:44 has some new technology development.
00:19:46 So I love it.
00:19:47 So when I was at NASA,
00:19:48 it really was under our public private partnerships.
00:19:50 So necessarily the government needs to fund
00:19:53 these startups.
00:19:54 Now, SpaceX is no longer a startup,
00:19:56 but you know, it’s been at it for 10 years.
00:19:58 It’s had some accidents, learned a lot of lessons,
00:20:00 but it’s great because it’s the way you move faster.
00:20:03 And also some private industry folks,
00:20:06 some private businesses will take a lot more risk.
00:20:08 That’s also really important for the government.
00:20:11 What do you think about that culture of risk?
00:20:13 I mean, sort of NASA and the government
00:20:15 are exceptionally good at delivering sort of safe,
00:20:18 like there’s a bit more of a culture of caution and safety
00:20:21 and sort of this kind of solid engineering.
00:20:23 And I think SpaceX as well has the same kind of stuff.
00:20:26 It has a little bit more of that startup feel
00:20:28 where they take the bigger risks.
00:20:29 Is that exciting for you to see,
00:20:31 seeing bigger risks in this kind of space?
00:20:33 Absolutely.
00:20:34 And the best scenario is both of them working together
00:20:38 because there’s really important lessons learned,
00:20:40 especially when you talk about human space flight,
00:20:41 safety, quality assurance.
00:20:43 These things are the utmost importance,
00:20:46 both aviation and space, you know,
00:20:47 when human lives are at stake.
00:20:49 On the other hand, government agencies,
00:20:51 NASA can be European Space Agency, you name it,
00:20:53 they become very bureaucratic, pretty risk averse,
00:20:56 move pretty slowly.
00:20:58 So I think the best is when you combine the partnerships
00:21:01 from both sides.
00:21:03 Industry necessarily has to push the government,
00:21:05 take some more risks.
00:21:06 You know, they’re smart risk
00:21:07 or actually gave an award at NASA for failing smart.
00:21:09 Failing smart, I love that.
00:21:12 You know, so you can kind of break open the culture,
00:21:13 say, no, look at Apollo, that was a huge risk.
00:21:16 It was done well.
00:21:17 So there’s always a culture of safety, quality assurance,
00:21:20 you know, engineering, you know, at its best.
00:21:23 But on the other hand, you want to get things done
00:21:26 and you have to also get them,
00:21:27 you have to bring the cost down.
00:21:28 You know, for when it comes to launch,
00:21:29 we really have to bring the cost down
00:21:31 and get the frequency up.
00:21:32 And so that’s what the newcomers are doing.
00:21:34 They’re really pushing that.
00:21:35 So it’s about the most exciting time
00:21:37 that I can imagine for space flight.
00:21:39 Again, a little bit, it really is the democratization
00:21:41 of space flight, opening it up,
00:21:43 not just because of the launch capability,
00:21:45 but the science we can do on a CubeSat.
00:21:47 What you can do now for very,
00:21:49 those used to be, you know, student projects
00:21:51 that we would go through, conceive, design, implement,
00:21:54 and think about what a small satellite would be.
00:21:56 Now they’re the most, you know,
00:21:58 these are really advanced instruments,
00:21:59 science instruments that are flying on little teeny CubeSats
00:22:02 that pretty much anyone can afford.
00:22:04 So there’s not a, there’s every nation,
00:22:06 you know, every place in the world can fly a CubeSat.
00:22:10 And so that’s…
00:22:11 What’s a CubeSat?
00:22:12 Oh, CubeSat is a, this is called 1U.
00:22:15 CubeSats we measure in terms of units.
00:22:17 So, you know, just in terms of, I put my,
00:22:19 both my hands together, that’s one unit, two units.
00:22:21 So little small satellites.
00:22:22 So CubeSats are for small satellites.
00:22:25 And we actually go by mass as well.
00:22:26 You know, a small satellite might be a hundred kilos,
00:22:29 200 kilos, all well under a thousand kilos.
00:22:32 CubeSats then are the next thing down from small sats.
00:22:35 You know, basically, you know,
00:22:37 kilos, tens of kilos, things like that.
00:22:39 But kind of the building blocks,
00:22:41 CubeSats are fantastic design,
00:22:42 it’s kind of modular design.
00:22:44 So I can take a 1U, one unit of CubeSat and, you know,
00:22:47 but what if I have a little bit more money and payload,
00:22:50 I can fly three of them
00:22:51 and just basically put a lot more instruments on it.
00:22:54 But essentially think about something
00:22:55 the size of a shoe box, if you will.
00:22:57 You know, that would be a CubeSat.
00:22:59 And how do those help empower you in terms of doing size,
00:23:02 in terms of doing experiments?
00:23:04 Oh, right now there’s, again,
00:23:05 back to private industry, Planet, the company,
00:23:07 is, you know, flying CubeSats
00:23:08 and literally looking down on Earth
00:23:10 and orbiting Earth, taking a picture, if you will,
00:23:13 of Earth every day, every 24 hours,
00:23:15 covering the entire Earth.
00:23:16 So in terms of Earth observations,
00:23:19 in terms of climate change,
00:23:20 in terms of our changing Earth,
00:23:22 it’s revolutionizing because they’re affordable.
00:23:24 We can put a whole bunch of them up.
00:23:26 Telecoms, we’re all, you know, on our cell phones
00:23:28 and we have GPS, we have our telecoms,
00:23:30 but those used to be very expensive satellites
00:23:33 providing that service.
00:23:34 Now we can fly a whole bunch of modular CubeSats.
00:23:38 So it really is breakthrough in terms of modularity,
00:23:42 as well as cost reduction.
00:23:44 So that’s one exciting set of developments.
00:23:47 Is there something else that you’ve been excited about,
00:23:51 like reusable rockets, perhaps,
00:23:52 that you’ve seen in the last few years?
00:23:54 Yeah, well, the reusability you had,
00:23:55 and the reusability is awesome.
00:23:57 I mean, it’s just the best.
00:23:59 Now we have to remember, the shuttle was a reusable vehicle.
00:24:01 Yes.
00:24:02 Which, and the shuttle is an amazing,
00:24:04 it’s narrow space engineer.
00:24:05 You know, I mean, the shuttle is still,
00:24:06 this is the most gorgeous, elegant,
00:24:09 extraordinary design of a space vehicle.
00:24:12 It was reusable, it just wasn’t affordable.
00:24:15 But the reusability of it was really critical
00:24:18 because we flew it up, it did come back.
00:24:19 So the notion of reusability, I think absolutely.
00:24:23 Now what we’re doing with we, you know,
00:24:26 the Global We, but with SpaceX and Lord Jim,
00:24:29 setting the rockets up, recovering the first stages,
00:24:31 where if they can regain 70% cost savings, that’s huge.
00:24:35 And just seeing the control,
00:24:37 you know, being in control and dynamic as a person,
00:24:39 just seeing that rocket come back and land.
00:24:41 Oh yeah, that’s.
00:24:42 It never gets old, it’s exciting every single time
00:24:45 you look at it and say, that’s magic.
00:24:46 So it’s so cool.
00:24:48 To me, the landing is where I stand up,
00:24:49 start clapping, just the control.
00:24:51 Yeah, just the algorithm, just the control algorithms,
00:24:53 and hitting that landing, it’s, you know,
00:24:55 it’s gymnastics for rocket ships,
00:24:58 but to see these guys stick a landing,
00:25:01 it’s just wonderful.
00:25:01 So every time, like I say, every time I see,
00:25:05 you know, the reusability and the rockets coming back
00:25:07 and landing so precisely, it’s really exciting.
00:25:09 So it is actually, that’s a game changer.
00:25:12 We are in a new era of lower costs
00:25:15 and the higher frequency.
00:25:17 And it’s the world, not just NASA,
00:25:19 many nations are really upping their frequency of launches.
00:25:23 So you’ve done a lot of exciting research,
00:25:25 design, engineering on spacesuits.
00:25:28 What does the spacesuit of the future look like?
00:25:33 Well, if I have anything to say about it,
00:25:34 it’ll be a very, it’ll be a very tight fitting suit.
00:25:37 We use mechanical counter pressure
00:25:38 to pressurize right directly on the skin.
00:25:41 Seems that it’s technically feasible.
00:25:42 We’re still at the research and development stage.
00:25:44 We don’t have a flight system, but technically it’s feasible.
00:25:47 So we do a lot of work in the materials.
00:25:48 You know, what materials do we need to pressurize someone?
00:25:51 What’s the patterning we need?
00:25:52 That’s what our patents are in, the patterning,
00:25:54 kind of how we apply.
00:25:55 This is a third of an atmosphere.
00:25:57 Just to sort of take a little step back,
00:25:59 you have this incredible biosuit where it’s tight fitting,
00:26:02 so it allows more mobility and so on.
00:26:04 So maybe even to take a bigger step back,
00:26:06 like what are the functions that a spacesuit should perform?
00:26:09 Sure, so start from the beginning.
00:26:11 A spacesuit is the world’s smallest spacecraft.
00:26:14 So I really, that’s the best definition I can give you.
00:26:16 Right now we fly gas pressurized suits,
00:26:18 but think of developing and designing an entire spacecraft.
00:26:22 So then you take all those systems
00:26:23 and you shrink them around a person,
00:26:25 provide them with oxygen to breathe,
00:26:27 scrub out their carbon dioxide,
00:26:29 you know, make sure they have pressure.
00:26:30 They need a pressure environment to live in.
00:26:31 So really the spacesuit is a shrunken,
00:26:34 you know, spacecraft in its entirety,
00:26:37 has all the same systems.
00:26:37 Communication as well, probably.
00:26:39 Yeah, communications, exactly.
00:26:41 So you really, thermal control,
00:26:44 little bit of radiation, not so much radiation protection,
00:26:45 but thermal control, humidity, you know, oxygen debris.
00:26:47 So all those life support systems,
00:26:49 as well as the pressure protection.
00:26:51 So it’s an engineering marvel, you know,
00:26:53 the spacesuits that have flown
00:26:54 because they really are entire spacecraft,
00:26:56 they’re the small spacecraft that we have around a person,
00:26:59 but they’re very massive,
00:27:00 but 140 kilos is the current suit,
00:27:02 and they’re not mobility suits.
00:27:04 So since we’re going back to the moon and Mars,
00:27:06 we need a planetary suit, we need a mobility suit.
00:27:08 So that’s where we’ve kind of flipped the design paradigm.
00:27:11 I study astronauts, I study humans in motion,
00:27:14 and if we can map that motion,
00:27:16 I want to give you full flexibility,
00:27:17 you know, move your arms and legs.
00:27:19 I really want you to be like a Olympic athlete,
00:27:21 an extreme explorer.
00:27:23 I don’t want to waste any of your energy,
00:27:25 so we take it from the human design.
00:27:27 So I take a look at humans, we measure them, we model them,
00:27:30 and then I say, okay, can I put a spacesuit on them
00:27:33 that goes from the skin out?
00:27:34 So rather than a gas pressurized shrinking
00:27:36 that spacecraft around the person,
00:27:38 say, here’s how humans perform,
00:27:40 can I design a spacesuit literally from the skin out?
00:27:42 And that’s what we’ve come up with,
00:27:44 a mechanical counter pressure, some patterning,
00:27:46 and that way it could be order of magnitude less
00:27:49 in terms of the mass,
00:27:51 and it should provide maximum mobility for moon or Mars.
00:27:54 What’s mechanical counter pressure?
00:27:56 Like how the heck can you even begin
00:27:58 to create something that’s tight fitting
00:28:02 and still doesn’t protect you from the elements and so on
00:28:05 and the whole, the pressure thing?
00:28:06 That’s the challenge, it’s a big design challenge
00:28:08 we’ve been working on it for.
00:28:09 So you can either put someone in a balloon,
00:28:11 that’s one way to do it, that’s conventional,
00:28:12 that’s the only thing we’ve ever formed.
00:28:13 What’s that mean?
00:28:14 That means the balloon that you fill with gas?
00:28:15 That’s a gas pressurized suit.
00:28:16 If you put someone in a balloon,
00:28:17 it’s only a third of an atmosphere
00:28:18 to keep someone alive.
00:28:19 So that’s what the current system is.
00:28:20 So depending on what units you think,
00:28:22 in 30 kilopascals, 4.3 pounds per square inch.
00:28:25 So much less than the pressure that’s on Earth.
00:28:28 You can still keep a human alive with 0.3
00:28:31 and it’s alive and happy.
00:28:33 Alive and happy.
00:28:34 And you mix the gases.
00:28:35 June, we’re having this chat
00:28:37 and we’re at one sea level in Boston, one atmosphere.
00:28:41 But a suit. Oxygen and nitrogen.
00:28:43 Oxygen and nitrogen.
00:28:44 And you put a suit, if we put someone to a third
00:28:46 of an atmosphere, so for mechanical counter pressure now,
00:28:49 so one way is to do it with a balloon.
00:28:51 And that’s what we currently have.
00:28:52 Or you can apply the pressure directly to the skin.
00:28:55 I only have to give you a third of an atmosphere.
00:28:58 Right now, you and I are very happy in one atmosphere.
00:29:00 So if I put that pressure, a third of an atmosphere on you,
00:29:04 I just have to do it consistently,
00:29:06 across all of your body and your limbs.
00:29:08 And it’ll be a gas pressurized helmet.
00:29:10 Doesn’t make sense to shrink wrap the head.
00:29:13 See the blue mangrove, that’s a great, it’s a great act.
00:29:15 But we don’t need to, there’s no benefits
00:29:17 of like shrink wrapping the head.
00:29:19 You put, you know, a gas pressurized helmet
00:29:21 because the helmet then, the future of suits,
00:29:23 you asked me about, the helmet just becomes
00:29:25 your information portal.
00:29:26 So it will have augmented reality.
00:29:28 It’ll have all the information you need.
00:29:30 Should have, you know, the maps that I need.
00:29:32 I’m on the moon.
00:29:33 Okay, well, hey, smart helmet.
00:29:34 Then show me the map, show me the topography.
00:29:36 Hopefully it has the lab embedded too.
00:29:38 If it has really great cameras,
00:29:40 maybe I can see with that regolith.
00:29:41 That’s just lunar dust and dirt.
00:29:43 What’s that made out of?
00:29:44 We talked about the water.
00:29:45 So the helmet then really becomes this information portal
00:29:48 is how I see kind of the IT architecture of the helmet
00:29:51 is really allowing me to, you know,
00:29:54 use all of my modalities of an explorer that I’d like to.
00:29:58 So cameras, voiceover, images, if it were really good,
00:30:01 it would kind of be, would have lab capabilities as well.
00:30:05 Okay, so the pressure comes from the body,
00:30:07 comes from the mechanical pressure.
00:30:09 It’s fascinating.
00:30:10 Now, what aspect, when I look at Biosuit,
00:30:12 just the suits you’re working on,
00:30:14 sort of from a fashion perspective, they look awesome.
00:30:17 Is that a small part of it too?
00:30:20 Oh, absolutely, because the teams that we work with,
00:30:23 of course, I’m an engineer, there’s engineering students,
00:30:25 there’s design students, there’s architects.
00:30:27 So it really is a very much a multidisciplinary team.
00:30:29 So sure, colors, aesthetics, materials,
00:30:33 all those things we pay attention to.
00:30:34 So it’s not just an engineering solution.
00:30:36 It really is a much more holistic, it’s a suit.
00:30:39 It’s a suit, you’re, you know,
00:30:41 you’re dressed in a suit now.
00:30:42 It’s a warm fitting.
00:30:43 So we really have to pay attention to all those things.
00:30:46 And so that’s the design team that we work with.
00:30:49 And my partner, Geetraati, you know,
00:30:50 we’re partners in this in terms of,
00:30:52 he comes from an architecture, industrial design background.
00:30:56 So bringing those skills to bear as well.
00:30:58 We team up with industry folks who are in, you know,
00:31:01 athletic performance and designers.
00:31:03 So it really is a team
00:31:04 that brings all those skills together.
00:31:06 So what role does this space suit play
00:31:08 in our longterm staying in Mars,
00:31:11 sort of exploring the,
00:31:13 doing all the work that astronauts do,
00:31:14 but also perhaps civilians one day,
00:31:17 almost like taking steps towards colonization of Mars?
00:31:20 What role does a space suit play there?
00:31:21 So you always need life support system, pressurized habitat.
00:31:25 And I like to say, we’re not going to Mars to sit around.
00:31:28 So you need a suit.
00:31:29 You know, even if you land and have the lander,
00:31:32 you’re not going there to stay inside.
00:31:33 That’s for darn sure.
00:31:34 We’re going there to search for the evidence of life.
00:31:36 That’s why we’re going to Mars.
00:31:37 So you need a lot of mobility.
00:31:39 So for me, the suit is the best way
00:31:41 to give the human mobility.
00:31:42 We’re always still going to need rovers.
00:31:44 We’re going to need robots.
00:31:45 So for me, exploration is always a suite of explorers.
00:31:49 Some people are going to,
00:31:50 some of the suite of explorers are humans,
00:31:51 but many are going to be robots, smart systems,
00:31:55 things like that.
00:31:55 But I look at it as kind of all those capabilities together
00:31:58 make the best exploration team.
00:32:01 So let me ask, I love artificial intelligence
00:32:03 and I’ve also saw that you’ve enjoyed the movie
00:32:07 Space Odyssey, 2001 Space Odyssey.
00:32:10 Let me ask the question about HAL 9000.
00:32:12 That makes a few decisions there
00:32:14 that prioritizes the mission over the astronauts.
00:32:17 Do you think, from a high philosophical question,
00:32:20 do you think HAL did the right thing
00:32:22 of prioritizing the mission?
00:32:24 I think our artificial intelligence
00:32:26 will be smarter in the future.
00:32:28 For a Mars mission, it’s a great question
00:32:30 that the reality is for a Mars mission,
00:32:32 we need fully autonomous systems.
00:32:34 We will get humans, but they have to be fully autonomous.
00:32:37 And that’s a really important,
00:32:38 that’s the most important concept
00:32:41 because there’s not going to be a mission control on Earth.
00:32:45 20 minute time lag,
00:32:47 there’s just no way you’re going to control it.
00:32:48 So fully autonomous,
00:32:49 so people have to be fully autonomous as well,
00:32:51 but all of our systems as well.
00:32:53 And so that’s the big design challenge.
00:32:55 So that’s why we test them out on the moon as well.
00:32:57 When we have a, okay, a few second,
00:32:59 three second time lag, you can test them out.
00:33:00 We have to really get autonomous exploration down.
00:33:05 You asked me earlier about Magellan.
00:33:06 Magellan and his crew, they left, right?
00:33:09 They were autonomous.
00:33:11 You know, they were autonomous.
00:33:12 They left and they were on their own
00:33:14 to figure out that mission.
00:33:15 Then when they hit land, they have resources,
00:33:16 that’s in situ resource utilization
00:33:19 and everything else they brought with them.
00:33:21 So we have to, I think, have that mindset for exploration.
00:33:23 Again, back to the moon, it’s more the testing ground,
00:33:25 the proving ground with technologies.
00:33:27 But when we get to Mars, it’s so far away
00:33:29 that we need fully autonomous systems.
00:33:31 So I think that’s where, again, AI and autonomy come in,
00:33:35 a really robust autonomy,
00:33:36 things that we don’t have today yet.
00:33:38 So they’re on the drawing boards,
00:33:39 but we really need to test them out
00:33:41 because that’s what we’re up against.
00:33:43 So fully autonomous meaning like self sufficient.
00:33:45 There’s still a role for the human in that picture.
00:33:48 Do you think there’ll be a time when AI systems,
00:33:52 beyond doing fully autonomous flight control
00:33:55 will also help or even take mission decisions
00:33:58 like Hal did?
00:33:59 That’s interesting.
00:34:00 It depends.
00:34:01 I mean, they’re gonna be designed by humans.
00:34:02 I think as you mentioned, humans are always in the loop.
00:34:04 I mean, we might be on Earth,
00:34:05 we might be in orbit on Mars,
00:34:06 maybe the systems of landers down on the surface of Mars.
00:34:10 But I think we’re gonna get,
00:34:12 we are right now just on Earth based systems,
00:34:14 AI systems that are incredibly capable
00:34:18 and training them with all the data that we have now,
00:34:22 petabytes of data from Earth.
00:34:24 What I care about for the autonomy and AI right now,
00:34:27 how we’re applying it in research
00:34:29 is to look at Earth and look at climate systems.
00:34:31 I mean, that’s the, it’s not for Mars to me today.
00:34:33 Right now AI is to eyes on Earth,
00:34:35 all of our space data, compiling that using supercomputers
00:34:39 because we have so much information and knowledge
00:34:41 and we need to get that into people’s hands.
00:34:43 First, there’s the educational issue with climate
00:34:46 and our changing climate.
00:34:47 Then we need to change human behavior.
00:34:49 That’s the biggie.
00:34:50 So this next decade, it’s urgent
00:34:52 we take care of our own spaceship, which is spaceship Earth.
00:34:55 So that’s to me where my focus has been for AI systems,
00:35:00 using whatever’s out there,
00:35:02 kind of imagining also what the future situation is,
00:35:05 what’s the satellite imagery of Earth of the future.
00:35:07 If you can hold that in your hands,
00:35:09 that’s gonna be really powerful.
00:35:10 Will that help people accelerate positive change for Earth
00:35:14 and for us to live in balance with Earth?
00:35:15 I hope so.
00:35:16 And kind of start with the ocean systems.
00:35:17 So oceans to land to air and kind of using
00:35:20 all the space data.
00:35:21 So it’s a huge role for artificial intelligence
00:35:24 to help us analyze, I call it curating the data,
00:35:27 using the data.
00:35:28 It has a lot to do with visualizations as well.
00:35:31 Do you think in a weird, dark question,
00:35:34 do you think human species can survive
00:35:36 if we don’t become interplanetary
00:35:39 in the next century or a couple of centuries?
00:35:44 Absolutely we can survive.
00:35:45 I don’t think Mars is option B actually.
00:35:48 So I think it’s all about saving spaceship Earth
00:35:51 and humanity.
00:35:52 I simply put, Earth doesn’t need us,
00:35:55 but we really need Earth.
00:35:57 All of humanity needs to live in balance with Earth
00:36:00 because Earth has been here a long time
00:36:01 before we ever showed up
00:36:02 and it’ll be here a long time after.
00:36:03 It’s just a matter of how do we wanna live
00:36:06 with all living beings, much more in balance
00:36:09 because we need to take care of the Earth
00:36:11 and right now we’re not.
00:36:12 So that’s the urgency.
00:36:14 And I think it is the next decade
00:36:15 to try to live much more sustainably,
00:36:18 live more in balance with Earth.
00:36:19 I think the human species has a great long optimistic future,
00:36:23 but we have to act.
00:36:24 It’s urgent.
00:36:25 We have to change behavior.
00:36:27 We have to realize that we’re all in this together.
00:36:30 It’s just one blue bubble.
00:36:31 It’s for humanity.
00:36:33 So when I think people realize that we’re all astronauts,
00:36:35 that’s the great news is everyone’s gonna be an astronaut.
00:36:38 We’re all astronauts of spaceship Earth.
00:36:41 And again, this is our mission.
00:36:42 This is our mission to take care of the planet.
00:36:45 And yet as we explore out from our spaceship Earth here
00:36:50 out into the space,
00:36:52 what do you think the next 50, 100, 200 years
00:36:55 look like for space exploration?
00:36:56 I’m optimistic.
00:36:58 So I think that we’ll have lots of people,
00:37:01 thousands of people, tens of thousands of people,
00:37:03 who knows, maybe millions in low Earth orbit.
00:37:05 That’s just a place that we’re gonna have people
00:37:06 and actually some industry, manufacturing, things like that.
00:37:11 That dream I hope we realize, getting people to the moon.
00:37:13 So I can envision a lot of people on the moon.
00:37:15 Again, it’s a great place to go.
00:37:17 Living or visiting?
00:37:18 Probably visiting and living.
00:37:21 If you want to, most people are gonna wanna come back
00:37:22 to Earth, I think.
00:37:23 But there’ll be some people and it’s not such a long,
00:37:26 it’s a good view, it’s a beautiful view.
00:37:28 So I think that we will have many people
00:37:30 on the moon as well.
00:37:31 I think there’ll be some people, you told me, wow,
00:37:33 hundreds of years out.
00:37:34 So we’ll have people, we’ll be interplanetary for sure
00:37:37 as a species.
00:37:38 So I think we’ll be on the moon.
00:37:39 I think we’ll be on Mars.
00:37:41 Venus, no, it’s already a runaway greenhouse gas.
00:37:43 So not a great place for science.
00:37:46 Jupiter, all within the solar system,
00:37:47 great place for all of our scientific probes.
00:37:50 I don’t see so much in terms of human physical presence.
00:37:53 We’ll be exploring them.
00:37:54 So we live in our minds there because we’re exploring them
00:37:57 and going on those journeys.
00:37:59 But it’s really our choice in terms of our decisions
00:38:03 of how in balance we’re gonna be living here on the Earth.
00:38:07 When do you think the first woman, first person will step on Mars?
00:38:11 Ah, step on Mars?
00:38:12 Well, I’m gonna do everything I can
00:38:14 to make sure it happens in the 2030s.
00:38:16 2030s.
00:38:17 Say mid, 20, mid 20, 2025, 2035, we’ll be on the moon.
00:38:22 And hopefully with more people than us.
00:38:24 But first with a few astronauts,
00:38:25 it’ll be global, international folks.
00:38:27 But we really need those 10 years, I think, on the moon.
00:38:29 And then so by later in the decade, in the 2030s,
00:38:33 we’ll have all the technology and know how,
00:38:35 and we need to get that human mission to Mars done.
00:38:38 We live in exciting times.
00:38:39 And, Dava, thank you so much for leading the way
00:38:41 and thank you for talking today.
00:38:42 I really appreciate it. Thank you, my pleasure.
00:38:45 Thanks for listening to this conversation
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